Use of spray bottles in training

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by Cdn1050

I'm no dog expert or dog training expert. Just curious, how does this method correct a dog that is showing signs of being territorial of his crate? This bull mastiff that Diva is speaking of growls when his owner goes near his crate and he is in it. The spray bottle or air horn, only temporarily stops the behaviour for the moment, it doesn't correct it.

It also associates the owner with what has to be a painful sound to a dog with the hearing capabilities they have and it may actually INCREASE the dog's growling at the handler or ANYONE who goes buy. I'd be throwing a dog growling at me treats through the slats of the kennell.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by jlhnokc

Question-how did you teach her with leave it to come to you and look at you? Jaycee knows leave it, and will drop/leave alone anything she has if I give her that command, but how do I go from that to coming to me? Could I say leave it, then come and then engage with her? and eventually phase out saying come?

She learned it in increments, baby steps if you will. Like this:

The foundation:

1. Teach the "take it, leave it" game. Show puppy you have yummy treats. Treats are dropped on the ground, one by one in different places. As you drop a treat, you say "Take it!", and of course puppy does, LOL! Good puppy! After about five repetitions of this, you drop one next to your foot and cover it with your foot and say "Leave it!" Puppy will try to get it, but won't be able to and eventually will look at you, wondering why they can't get it.......to which you say "GOOOOOOOD Leave it!!!!" and give the puppy a treat from your mouth. Teach this game well, and every time your puppy hears "Leave it" he/she will look at your face for a treat.

Generalizing it to barking at the window:

2. I'm in the room with her when she barks. I say "Leave it!", and at first may have needed to walk up and lightly tap her on the head with my finger to get her to divert her attention from the "offender" to me. Once she did, I immediately leaped in the air, threw my hands up and whooped "YES!!! GOOD LEAVE IT!" "C'mon, CHILI - let's go get a TREAT!!" and I take off running for the refrigerator and produce something delicious for her. She joyously gallops with me, because it's obvious to her something wonderful just happened, even if she hasn't totally figured it out yet.

3. This progresses to me being across the room and having her respond. Same enthusiastic response from me (which gets and keeps her attention) and same reward. Next thing I know she's running to me as soon as I give her a "Yes! GOOD Leave it!" And we race to the fridge.

4. Now I'm out of sight in the next room. Now she bolts away from the window when she hears me, and we meet at the fridge.

5. After that, piece of cake to have her gallop upstairs. If I don't meet her at the fridge, she's going to come and GET me, LOL. I keep treats upstairs, too, so I can reward her without even getting up.

I love my dog!

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Ayoka

We taught leave it using a jackpot game. I heald a treat in my hand, he's sniff and paw, the minute he redirected his attention to me or looked away from my hand, I rewarded so leave it came to mean leave that tempting thing and look at me.

This is similar to how I taught "watch me", except the treat was held up out of reach, so no sniffing/pawing. First held by my nose, when she looked "GOOD WATCH ME!" Then I'd hold my arm out to the side at shoulder level with treat in hand and wait for her to look at my face....."GOOD WATCH ME!" Then switch hands, hold behind my back, straight up over my head, etc., etc.

[jlaack]

I've seen some people mentioning about using spray bottles as a method of training certain behaviours. To me, it seems like a form of bullying the puppy / dog, and not a way to gain a dog's respect for you. I've also read somewhere that in a lot of dogs where owners use this method, it can create eye, ear, and nose infections. I don't personally like it and don't use it, but that's JMO. But maybe I'm not seeing something here. Just wanting to get everyone's thoughts on this, if they recommend or don't recommend it.

I don't like it/don't use it. I prefer to have my dogs do something incompatible with performing the undesired behavior. Also, if I have to correct my dog or get their attention, which happens from time to time, I want them to know the correction/attention call came from me. Unless you are planning to always have a bullhorn/spray bottle on hand what good is using this tool? If they are being used inside the house you'll likely need them outside as well. I'd rather use tools that are always present, my voice, the leash, collar, my body language, etc.

[jlhnokc]

Thank you to MoonDog and Ayoka!!!!

[kclinch]

Boater's Air horns.

So often I get in dogs that scream and hollar in the crate. Period. It has to be corrected. Period. Air horn works as a behavior interrupter. Dog does not necessarily associated it with me, since I am generally not in the room where the dog is at(BAH is hiding in my bathroom, right around the corner from the dog room)

Within a couple of days, dogs are quiet, peaceful, etc, from barking.

As far as some approaches....just curious, but how do you verbally reward the dog for not being in the window, if you are not home? In otherwords, what's to stop the dog from doing it when you aren't around?

[moondog]

Originally Posted by kclinch

As far as some approaches....just curious, but how do you verbally reward the dog for not being in the window, if you are not home? In otherwords, what's to stop the dog from doing it when you aren't around?

It would be helpful if you would read the entire thread to avoid misinterpretations.

Originally Posted by moondog

Chili likes to bark at the front window when people/dogs go by. I have 3 options in dealing with this - 1) restrict access to window; 2) spray, yank, yell at her; 3) give her an alternative behavior.

I do restrict access when I'm not home to manage the activity. Rather than using #2, however, I chose to use #3 and reinforce her "leave it" training, so I give her an alternative.

Any dog can be bullied/frightened into fearing retribution for a transgression. *I* choose not to go that route, as *my* experience is that it is detrimental to my dog's development. Granted, I only have one dog, and only want one dog, so the time and attention it takes for me is part and parcel to the relationship I choose to build with *my* dog. For kennel masters, I imagine it's too much trouble.

[jlaack]

As far as some approaches....just curious, but how do you verbally reward the dog for not being in the window, if you are not home? In otherwords, what's to stop the dog from doing it when you aren't around?

How will an airhorne address this problem?

[damp]

Originally Posted by jlaack

How will an airhorne address this problem?

LOL good question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I am not a proff. trainer but I do believe that voice and body language is our best training tool! Next a collar and leash and some goodies!
To the OP; it's ok to direct/correct a dog... but we can discuss and disagree now and till New Year Eve about the methods!

I would hate to run all our the house to look for the spray bottle or the airhorn to correct and control my dog, just to find out, when I finally found these things, I also found, I was way to late to correct the dog.

It's nice to lay on the couch and control the dog: No, Nah, Stop it, Go lay down. etc. .... and then turn over on the other side and take an other (half hour) nap !

[Nishasmom]

We used the spray bottle technique for about a day; Nisha LOVED it!!! She would come running every time we got it out; she thinks its a treat . Oh well, I now think there are way better ways of "teaching" anyways .

[Zumie05]

Originally Posted by Nishasmom

We used the spray bottle technique for about a day; Nisha LOVED it!!! She would come running every time we got it out; she thinks its a treat . Oh well, I now think there are way better ways of "teaching" anyways .

That was my problem too. Gary would lick and bite at the water and think it was all fun. That is why the trainer suggested vinegar in the water.

But now after reading this thread I guess spray bottle training for barking doesn't seem to be the best way to go lol. *sigh* I guess after this class I will yet again have to find another training place.

I am just confused because to me the whole water with vinegar in it from the spray bottle works for disengaging my puppy off of whatever he is barking at. So far it has not turned his attention off from me. It gets him to stop looking/barking at whatever is making him bark. As soon as barking stops he gets a treat, so this is teaching him that if he barks there is a consequence. If he is quiet and looking at me there is a reward.

The problem that I did have pointed out to me is that it just isn't realistic to have a spray bottle with you at all times. Plus, you want the dog to understand that he has to listen to you, not just when in the presence of a spray bottle. It is just so tempting to keep using though, because it is WORKING!

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by moondog

Yes. I've given her an opportunity to THINK. And for anyone who thinks that by doing this I've done nothing but teach her that barking at the window is a great thing to do because the game is on and there's a reward in it, it's becoming quite apparent to me that's not at all the case.......not ALL the time, but now, SOME of the time....she will look out the window and see a dog, pause a split second to make a decision, and then turn away from the window and CHARGE to me without a single bark at the dog. That is SUPER fantastic and boy does she get a SUPER reward when she does that.

Aversives are easy. Taking the time to teach a dog to make good choices is more difficult and yes, more time consuming........but there's no comparison in the rewards for me and my dog both.

Bravo.

One must give a dog a choice. The dog learns to look to you for guidance, just as moondog stated. The dog learns respect for you as well. Tyranical authority really isn't the Do "this" behavior, I'm not pleased... do "that" behavior, and there's a paycheck in it for you. Simply telling a dog "no" gives the dog no guidance. Simply correcting a dog with no follow up and redirection gives the dog no confidence that it can do anything right.

You spelled that out rather nicely moondog.

[Skip]

Originally Posted by damp

..............


I am not a proff. trainer but I do believe that voice and body language is our best training tool! Next a collar and leash and some goodies!
To the OP; it's ok to direct/correct a dog... but we can discuss and disagree now and till New Year Eve about the methods!

I would hate to run all our the house to look for the spray bottle or the airhorn to correct and control my dog, just to find out, when I finally found these things, I also found, I was way to late to correct the dog.

......!

Totally agree. This also goes for the "shaking coins in a can" correction,
and doing the "high yelp" like a littermate.

[Calin]

I think with ANY correction, you run the risk of the dog associating you with 'bad things.' I think a lot of people here will put down a spray bottle, yet will verbally correct their dogs or give them leash pops with prongs and/or chokes. What's the difference, really?

I think the most effective corrections are the one that dogs doesn't realize is coming from you. Like, to them, it has to seem like something strange that just happens when they are doing a particular behavior.

That's why, when I used spray bottle, I didn't spray the dog in the eyes or the face. I sprayed her in the butt. Then, she's turn around with this 'what the heck was that?' look on her face and it gave me that split second I needed to redirect her.

This was good for 2 reasons:

1. It distracted her without scaring or hurting her.
2. She didn't know I was doing it.

I never had to carry a squirt bottle around with me wherever I went or some other such nonsense because she never made the connection between the squirt bottle and the wetness on her butt. I used this method to get rid of my pups nippy behavior and she hasn't laid her teeth on me since she was 4 months old.

Bottom line is I'm always immediately wary of anyone who say that there is only one 'right' way to train a dog. Dogs are dogs, true, but they also have some sort of individual nature.

I mean, do all HUMANS learn exactly the same way? No, some humans learn better with hands on stuff. Some humans learn best if they read it in a book. Still some other humans learn if they just see someone else doing it. We would never give a human a math book, tell him to read it, and then expect him to understand it at just the same rate as everyone else in the class, would we?

I think dogs, to some extent, are the same. They learn best with different methods depending on their own personality, strengths, and weaknesses. You can sit with a dog and try to train it the 'right way' (According to an internet forum) all you want. But if you're dog isn't getting it that way, it's just not getting it. If you keep on doing something that's not effective, then the only thing you're going to do is frustrate yourself and frustrate your dog.

To me, a good training method has to meet 2 qualifications:

1. It has to be humane.
2. It has to WORK.

If you want to train your dog, it's good to ask advice from others. But ultimately, you have to know the temperament and personality of your dog and go from there.

But anyone who says So&so is the ONLY way to get your dog to stop nipping or SO&So is the ONLY way to get your dog to not chase the cat....eh, I take all that with a grain of salt. There are more than 1 way to train an animal and any trainer who gets more caught up in what they personally think is 'right' without considering new information or the personality of the animal they are dealing with are selling themselves short and worse, selling the animals short.

I mean, if your kids kindergarten teacher said, "This is the ONLY way I know how to teach kids to read..." What would you think?

Personally, I would think they weren't very good teachers. To me, a good teacher has more than 1 trick up his sleeve.

Just my opinion.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Calin

I think with ANY correction, you run the risk of the dog associating you with 'bad things.' I think a lot of people here will put down a spray bottle, yet will verbally correct their dogs or give them leash pops with prongs and/or chokes. What's the difference, really?

Nothing, if you've skipped the TEACHING phase. Using aversives before a dog has a clue what you expect is an unfair correction. Correction for what? If you've taken the time to "CREATE" the desired behavior by TEACHING, then I guarantee you, you will find NO PLACE in your training program for a spray bottle, other than to cool your dog down on a hot day.

Originally Posted by Calin

I think the most effective corrections are the one that dogs doesn't realize is coming from you.

That's why, when I used spray bottle, I didn't spray the dog in the eyes or the face. I sprayed her in the butt.

Do you truly believe that your dog has no idea that YOU are the one standing behind her and spraying her in the butt? LOL, I think you need to give her a little more credit than that. Dogs are VERY aware of what's around them, so your reasoning doesn't fly for me.

Originally Posted by Calin

There are more than 1 way to train an animal and any trainer who gets more caught up in what they personally think is 'right' without considering new information or the personality of the animal they are dealing with are selling themselves short and worse, selling the animals short.

Yes, that's why, in light of new information, training has evolved from yank and crank aversives and has determined that there is a Teaching Phase, a Correction Phase, and a Proofing Phase. I would offer that those who go straight to the Correction Phase are the ones selling their dogs short.

Originally Posted by Calin

Personally, I would think they weren't very good teachers. To me, a good teacher has more than 1 trick up his sleeve.

Certainly....a GOOD trainer has many ENGAGING tricks up their sleeves. By using a spray bottle for puppy biting, many potentially positive and constructive training lessons are lost. Engaging a biting puppy using redirection and rewards for a wide variety of alternative behaviors can establish a truly solid desire in a developing puppy to want to work with you. All a spray bottle does when used as an aversive is mentally push the dog away from you. All you're doing is telling them to shut up. That's old school, and precisely the one trick pony you're talking about. Training has evolved, now people just need to evolve with it. FOR the dogs!

And that's....just my opinion!