Training tonight!

[Zumie05]

Originally Posted by jlaack

Yes it is and I am completely shocked. I observed some classes there and had some private lessons but was never recommend a spray bottle or to praise with a command. I am speechless!!! I think I owe you the refund on the training, seriously. Is it the owner of the facility that is teaching?

No, we have a younger looking girl who said she has been working there for two years. After this class I will maybe look into a different instructor and save myself the pain of having to find another facility. I do really like this place though. They have a CGC class, rally, agility, and I want to take all of the classes there.

What do you think?

[jlaack]

Now I am very unsure about the facility. I worked with the owner older lady long blondish grayish hair in 2003. Why I strongly recommend this place is I was pleased with the classes I observed and I used their services with a behavioral problem. At the time what I considered to be my 'finished' dog started lunging at dogs while on walks. So I went there for private lessons because after a few incidents I knew I was contributing more to the problem than working to solve it. I was very pleased with the lessons and we solved behavior through redirection and verbal praise. I had called several other facilities but there were more in line with switching to a pinch collar, pinning the dog down, etc. whereas I wasn't. I had a dog with very strong ob and I felt dealing with this problem that I should rely on the ob but I just didn't put together shifting to working before the problem occurs rather than correcting after it happened. I know this is REALLY long and off subject but I had a really positive experience there and up until reading your post (and the fact I live in WI) I wouldn't have hesitated to take any behavior issue to them. Now I really can't say. But I feel awful that I recommended this place to you and the methods employed to train dogs appeared to have changed. I would say perhaps it is the individual trainer, but when I took my dog there, the head trainer made all trainers go through a lengthy apprenticeship so the methods have to be coming from the top.

I understand your dilemma as the facility is amazing, but it is so essential for a dog to start with a great foundation created through quality training. I'm sorry I don't have much more concrete advice for you and again, I am truly sorry about the recommendation. I would stop using the squirt bottle and I would just say GOOD BOY for correctly performed commands.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Zumie05

My trainer had put vinegar in the bottles mixed with water, but that wasn't helping Gary last week so she told me next week to bring my own bottle and to increase the vinegar/water ratio. That was all the advice I had last week....

actually gary is just a young pup and a perfect example where someone thought training is better than manners at this point, i start manners as soon as i get the pup and am now just starting ob at 10 1/2 months as long as the dog has manners at his age thats allthats needed but to say this bluntly you should run not walk from this trainer anyone who would even suggest spray bottles/squirt guns/can rattling or anything of this nature is not a trainer and simply doesnt have a clue.the kind of advice your getting is no better than someone telling you to roll up a newspaper to use on the dog and im sure you wouldnt do that . so dont throw your money away on bad advice from a so called trainer, if you were to have a problem with your dog a trainer like this can take a problem and turn it into a real problem in a very short time.

[hcelsa]

Originally Posted by Zumie05

This is at the academy of canine behavior!

In all honesty, I would recommend you look for a different training facility. The facility is nice because they make a lot of money...it has nothing to do with the quality of training .

There are quite a few places that would be a better option in this area :).

Here's one of the ones I usually recommend:
http://www.familydogonline.com/

Imagine spraying vinegar in your eyes...it' wouldn't teach you anything other than to avoid the vinegar bottle and/or the person holding it!

[alice's mommy]

Zumie, I understand your dilemma. At Arthur's training class, I told the instructor that I wasn't going to make him do a "drop" (quick down) onto the floor, as he'd just had surgery to get neutered three days previous and I didn't want to hurt his incision. She said I was "being played" by my dog. I was like, "Whatever".
When I'm in classes now, I take the good advice but LEAVE advice that I deem to be not congruant with Arthur's needs and my own common sense.
I'm sure my trainer still knows waaaaaay more than myself....but I also know that for me and for Arthur, forcing him to do something that might have damaged his incision (or even caused him discomfort) wasn't worth the risk to me. :)

[TrinaJ]

Personally I wouldn't use the vinegar/water spray as i wouldn't like it done to me. *shrugs*

Perhaps try placing the treat at your mouth and saying 'watch' 'watch' 'watch' - that definately gets Jett's attention. If she looks away i put it close to her then lift it back to my mouth and repeat 'watch' and praising her at the same time!!

I'm glad to hear the class went better.

Prongs are illegal here in OZ, just like everything else..... we can only use the correction collar.

Perhaps I am forgetting about training my boys but my God Jett seems to be a LOT stronger than any of them ever were....or maybe i am just getting old and weak

[TrinaJ]

Originally Posted by alice's mommy

Zumie, I understand your dilemma. At Arthur's training class, I told the instructor that I wasn't going to make him do a "drop" (quick down) onto the floor, as he'd just had surgery to get neutered three days previous and I didn't want to hurt his incision. She said I was "being played" by my dog. I was like, "Whatever".
When I'm in classes now, I take the good advice but LEAVE advice that I deem to be not congruant with Arthur's needs and my own common sense.
I'm sure my trainer still knows waaaaaay more than myself....but I also know that for me and for Arthur, forcing him to do something that might have damaged his incision (or even caused him discomfort) wasn't worth the risk to me. :)

I dont blame you in the least. Your doing the right thing by thinking about what advice youre being given and choosing what seems right to you.

[Zumie05]

Originally Posted by hcelsa

Imagine spraying vinegar in your eyes...

Funny you bring this up because last night I had a few of my friends in here who were willing to take a shot of the vinegar/water spray into their eyes. They reported that it stung pretty bad for like 5 seconds, then it went away, and then their eyesight was greatly improved in that eye afterwards. Strange!

But still, it does sting. Funny because the trainer said it was a natural eyewash...maybe she meant a natural eye cleaner, in that it doesn't do any damage to the eye but still cleans it. Kindof like rubbing alcohol to a wound or something.

BTW, classes are non refundable at this place. I am going to finish up the class, I might as well continue working on getting Gary to behave with the distractions of other dogs around.

[Zumie05]

Originally Posted by lblax

actually gary is just a young pup and a perfect example where someone thought training is better than manners at this point, i start manners as soon as i get the pup and am now just starting ob at 10 1/2 months as long as the dog has manners at his age thats allthats needed but to say this bluntly you should run not walk from this trainer anyone who would even suggest spray bottles/squirt guns/can rattling or anything of this nature is not a trainer and simply doesnt have a clue.the kind of advice your getting is no better than someone telling you to roll up a newspaper to use on the dog and im sure you wouldnt do that . so dont throw your money away on bad advice from a so called trainer, if you were to have a problem with your dog a trainer like this can take a problem and turn it into a real problem in a very short time.

I have been trying to work on manners from day 1 since we have brought Gary home

I have never allowed him to jump up on me or any guests. He gets put away if he is too obnoxious around visitors. I NEVER let him pull me on walks. I have been continuously socializing him. What else can I be doing at this point to work on his manners? (I do still think he has bad manners but I really am trying to work on it!)

I thought that I needed to be working on getting him more solid around distractions. He has no manners in situations that get him over excited (new dogs, new people around, etc).

I am still going to go to this training place, as I need to work on getting Gary to calm down and have more self control in social situations.

[hcelsa]

Originally Posted by Zumie05

Funny because the trainer said it was a natural eyewash...maybe she meant a natural eye cleaner, in that it doesn't do any damage to the eye but still cleans it. Kindof like rubbing alcohol to a wound or something.

The trainer is full of crap...quite typical of the extremely inexperienced folks (they often start out as kennel help and have no training background...but the owners don't have to pay them much ) hired to teach classes at that particular facility. I'd be willing to bet that this "trainer" has not accomplished anything to speak of prior to instructing others.

For what it's worth vet friend who works in emergency medicine has had dogs come in with extremely irritated eyes due to the crap people spray into their faces in the name of "training"...

[Zumie05]

I just wanted to say on this thread what I think about using spray bottles now, after reading the other thread going on about using them in training.

I do think they are highly effective at getting the dog to stop focusing on something. I do think that vinegar in the water is a bit cruel now that I know it burns, but I still like the idea of squirting the dog to break the attention. If I wasn't going to use the squirt bottle, I would probably be using a leash correction instead.

I learned it isn't fair to use an aversive type of correction on a dog if he doesn't know what is actually expected of him. Makes sense. If I went to Japan and someone asked me to do something and I didn't (because I don't know Japanese) and they started squirting me for not listening, that just wouldn't be fair. You have to first show what is expected, then it does become fair to correct when the dog is actually choosing not to comply.

Also, you do want the dog to understand that you are the one correcting him, not the device itself. Otherwise your dog will only be "good" in the presence of a bottle. I have started hiding it behind my back, and try not to let him see it out. Occasionally when nothing is going on and he is being good I will bring it out and put it in front of his face, and he has no reaction (thank goodness!) so I haven't ruined the squirt bottle opportunity for my dog. I'm pretty sure he thinks it comes from me when I say "quiet".

[poohbearsmom]

Zumie, please listen to jlaack and becky.

If distractions are too high for you to regain the focus of your pup, it's much more fair to increase the distance of the distraction to the point at which you can communicate with Gary, and then reward the pup for proper responses. This way, you are setting the pup up for success. A vinegar filled spray bottle does NOTHING to enhance your relationship with this dog, but rather will send him into avoidance. Not the best of ideas if trust is what you'd like to build.

As your pup succeeds, distractions are increased. I never expect a young, green dog or a pup to give their handler full on attention in class (if it happens, kudos to student and pup!) - because of the distractions, but it gives me the ability to show people how to handle these situations properly.