A good way to train the Stay command?

[lostsouls59]

Luke is now almost 12 months old and I can get him to sit and down with a stay in the following place: In the house he can do it almost 5 to 8 minutes no problems. Out on walks with dogs behind fences he can do it just fine. With People walking past he will hold the stay. In Class with other dog he will hold the stay..


Out side of class he will not stay when other dogs appear and are not block by a fence or out of distance... He obeys sit and down but right back up and lunging with his butt in the air wagging all over the place.

So does anybody have any suggestions on how to make stay fun. Treats do not win him over when he is that excited and walking away just has not made it stick into his brain.

I am happy he is so friendly but I know this is a rude behaviour and I want to nip it in the bud now before he becomes strong enough for me not to contain and keep back.

[brunie's mom]

If he is distracted and lunging at other dogs, then a "stay" command is not good. It just puts him in a vulnerable position and allows him to get more worked up.
Keep him moving, zig zag him around and use the "leave it" command. It's best not to allow him to get to the worked up stage....you must read his body language and distract him with a treat.

What does the obedience instructor say?

Gina

[poohbearsmom]

Personally, I don't use a "Stay" command, nor do I teach it in my puppy class.

Instead, I build upon a given behavior, and I teach a release word, "free", for instance. The dog then learns to sit (or down or stand) in a stationary position until either released with the magic word, or is asked to perform another behavior (come, down, sit, stand) and so on.

The dog would be rewarded for holding it for a few seconds with a release and a reward. To maintain the position longer, rewarding during the behavior is good as well, which reinforces maintaining the position. The timing of the human is crucial for rewards, releases, etc...

Time is built over time and consistent handling. The dog is encouraged to succeed, and corrections are mild and more of a guidance until the dog really understands what I want. Use of negative punishment (witholding the reward) and asking for a behavior again if the dog fails is better than corrections in the teaching phase. Dog must be put back to the place where I asked for the behavior if he breaks the behavior; since dogs are VERY spacially aware, this tells the dog "I mean for you to sit exactly where I asked you to sit and I meant it".

As with any behavior, distractions are brought in gradually, and environments are added as the dog is succeeding. Distractions like other dogs on walks call for a nice "leave it" command, along with a "watch me" command for eye contact, both of which can be taught quickly, and reinforced by building these distractions and adding environments. Start in the living room or back yard, and up the ante as you can gain and keep your dog's attention. It is best to catch the dog BEFORE he's revved up, and gain his attention. As you have found, once his motor's running, you don't stand a chance in gaining his attention easily. These "rules" (listen to me, and don't worry about that silly dog) are best learned through consistent and timely handling of the dog, in controlled situations, where you can set up the scenario and practice without worrying about becoming front page news.

Whether I'm teaching a puppy, a green dog, or a dog who's been trained badly, I use this same technique. Lot's of animation, movement and happy happy joy joy are helpful in keeping the dog's attitude (and my attitude) and attention held.

It might help you a lot to seek a trainer affiliated with a working dog club. A lot of the time, they have a better understanding of how the dog's brain works in drive, and by this age, dogs are rewarded with toys, rather than food, which utilizes the dog's drives and teaches the dog that FUN comes from you when the dog does what you want.

Hope this helps.

[lostsouls59]

Thank you both for the wonderful advice. Like I said in class he does great with the stay. They test him every class to make sure we understood the correction and reward idea. Like I said in class he does great. The trainers just praise him away. We also do watch me. I will try to add this in on our walks instead of just stay and the zig zag movement. I might be the one that needs the training on this so I will start a search for a working dog training group or some one on one training.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by lostsouls59

Thank you both for the wonderful advice. Like I said in class he does great with the stay. They test him every class to make sure we understood the correction and reward idea. Like I said in class he does great. The trainers just praise him away. We also do watch me. I will try to add this in on our walks instead of just stay and the zig zag movement. I might be the one that needs the training on this so I will start a search for a working dog training group or some one on one training.

It is important to note that dogs do not generalize behaviors like we do. If you train him in class, and he behaves with distractions, it's because he's relating that "good behavior" to the class environment.

So, one must train in various environments (in the house, in the yard, on walks, at the veterinarian's, in class, downtown, at night, in the rain, etc....)
adding distractions as the dog succeeds. Corrections and compulsion are only used AFTER the dog has good success in each environment.

Hope that makes sense.

[lostsouls59]

I wanted to thank you two again for your advice. The zig zag motion has improved. We are also doing much better with the watch me commands. Since he is not interested in being petted, treats or toys on walks I get him to sit and watch me when ever he wants to mark something. Then praise him highly and tell him go big boy tell them doggies who was here. Go figure. The watch me's and me keeping his attention with dogs around is working much better.

[lblax]

a stay is a stand out of motion.

[cerulean]

Originally Posted by lostsouls59

Since he is not interested in being petted, treats or toys on walks I get him to sit and watch me when ever he wants to mark something. Then praise him highly and tell him go big boy tell them doggies who was here.

That's so funny !! Whatever works, eh ??
"Just because something is not a reward in MY mind, doesn't mean that it's not the best thing ever as far as my dog is concerned !!!"
PLEASE don't tell me I have to start rewarding her with a nice roll in some dead thing !!!!

[lostsouls59]

Originally Posted by cerulean

That's so funny !! Whatever works, eh ??
"Just because something is not a reward in MY mind, doesn't mean that it's not the best thing ever as far as my dog is concerned !!!"
PLEASE don't tell me I have to start rewarding her with a nice roll in some dead thing !!!!

I guess if you find lots of dead things on your walks and wear gloves. Maybe even some nose plugs it would work. lol!! I hope she like lots and lots of baths!!!

[RottsNScotts]

Originally Posted by lblax

a stay is a stand out of motion.

Not exactly. The German command "steh" is a stand out of motion...

[jazzking1971]

you need to train by using the command then positive(good)/negative(Ah Ah) bridge and a release

For me, SIT and DOWN and STAND all mean do not do anything else unless I say YES or give another command. Right now the only other command I occasionally give is COME.

Dogs anticipate actions so set him up so that he anticipates your return to release him and nothing else. If he breaks then grab him by the collar and walk him back on your right side and place him in the spot again, don't give the command again just put him there. Wait a few seconds and then release him.

There are a million scenarios to train this. Does he hang out in the kitchen when you are cooking or preparing his food dish? Make him do it then and always bring the reward to him and never call him from his spot unless he's solid.

I've gone to dog parks when he was younger just to work on long down stays. Dogs come and sniff and jump over him and he doesn't move... the second he's move I'd give him the "uh uh" but would soon release him with a ball toss or tug bite. At 12mo your dog might be getting a little old for dog parks.

I'm sure there is some kind of reward you can use, if not then maybe light compulsion is the answer, I haven't seen your dog so I don't know how sensitive he is.

Also consider that dogs use eyes and then ears. He may not even understand the command without body language from you. Can you stand perfectly straight and without eye contact, give your dog a command and have him do it? You can always add hand and body signals later.

[lostsouls59]

He still loves the dog park. I however have decieded the other owners do not control their dogs well enough for me to risk mine there any longer.

When I train my dog at home our out on walks on the stay command he is praised high when he obeys and it is a nah ah when he starts to move without release. Like I said my biggest issue with the stay was when the dog enter this radius he deemed play time close enough. Then he would loose any though process but would go in the air wagging every direction and then lunge to play.

The recommended zig zag motion has worked better with getting him to understand lunging is not allowed. I zig zag him off and them turn him back walk toward the other dog and if he tenses zig zag again until we get past the other animal.

He listen to most commands the first time except when he went through his if I am not looking at her she is not talking to me phase. Or testing the boundries phase as it is called on here. it really did seem like he would turn his head away to ignore me until I was right in front of him say it.. then he would obey..

Maybe I am not working them long enough for him. What are good times to start with to work on a long stay?

[jlaack]

Like other posters I also use a release signal with all my commands. Therefore until the command is released the dog is expected to hold the command. Our release is 'okay' with a chin touch. This is good practice when training commands because it consistently lets the dog know when the command is finished. Without the release it is arbitrary to them whether or not the sit is done after the but touches the ground or two minutes later. So a 10 minute down is a down, not a down stay for us. That said we do use the stay command to have our dogs freeze in a command. The biggest difference in the stay is that a lot more formal. In a down if my dog shifts weight, lays on the side that is okay; in a stay I expect them to not move anything but their head.

I agree with the others that I wouldn't use the stay as a general practice to handle high level distractions with your dog. It is better to keep them moving and also to use an alternate command (such as leave it) to indicate that hey, I want you paying attention to me, not to x, y, z. However, there are times when it is helpful for a dog to be in a stay even with the highest level of distractions, so I also practice it occassionally and think it is one of many valuable commands. I think your biggest hangup based on the OP, is that you are increasing the difficulty much to fast, which is why you are only having the problem at this point:

Like I said my biggest issue with the stay was when the dog enter this radius he deemed play time close enough.

To expect your dog to perform during class where all the dogs are focused and settled vs. the free for all post class are greatly different in difficulty. That is likely why your dog is failing; you have had success in lower level distractions but you expect the same results in high level distractions. Once your dog knows any command you gradually up the difficultly over time and move back a step or two if your dog isn't having success with the increased difficulty.

Maybe I am not working them long enough for him. What are good times to start with to work on a long stay?

Your dog is only 12 mo, so I don't think that not practicing enough is the problem; training takes time.

[jazzking1971]

Originally Posted by lostsouls59

Maybe I am not working them long enough for him. What are good times to start with to work on a long stay?

With my pups, I had them doing 8-10min at 7mo

Now at 16mo it's seemingly indefinate and under any weather condition(haven't tested heavy snow but have training during a minor hail storm). I can walk out of sight (another person watching for me) for 20-25min (haven't tested any longer)

I started with immediate release, 15sec, 25sec, 45sec, 1min - all in the same week. Then I platzed him until he failed which about 1:30-2:00min. Then I went to a bunch of short success session with a few longer ones in between.

After you get to 3 then comes 5 10 15 25 etc

[cerulean]

Originally Posted by jlaack

I also use a release signal with all my commands. Therefore until the command is released the dog is expected to hold the command. Our release is 'okay' with a chin touch.

Jlaak .....by "chin touch", do you mean you touch the dog's chin, or your own chin (as your hand signal for "release") ???

(I know you've mentioned this chin touch before, and I thought you meant the dog's chin, but then you can't release from a distance....)
Thanks for all your training advice !!
Deanna