Kick back Stand

[Ayoka]

How do you teach it?

We've been luring with a treat directly under bear's chin to his chest and I'm trying to fade that lure fast...

I like the idea of the dog NOT moving forward into a stand and I'd be interested in hearing how others have approched this.

[moondog]

I used the lure under the chin also, along with the help of a box which enables you to fade the lure faster and also work on the command with increasing distance. We also started this off by standing to the side and facing the dog's side first....from that position you can give your dog a nudge with your foot, if needed, for both the tuck sit and the kick back stand.

Now that we're working on signaling in class, I've found the box really useful, especially for the down signal (Chili tends to want to slide her front feet forward into the down instead of completely folding back into it - and this really began with doing puppy pushups incorrectly - totally my mistake!)

[cerulean]

Wow, is there really a "correct" way to do puppy-pushups ???
We've just been alternating sit and plotz (butt on the floor, belly on the floor, and back up to butt on the floor). Mango's only 12 weeks. Any suggestions, or is it too early to worry about the details yet ?? Thanks....

[laurlitt]

If starting from scratch, from a sit... it helps to get the 'kick back' as you call it by slightly pushing into the dogs nose/mouth with the treat when you 'lure' them into the stand. Your hand w/ the treat blocks the dog from moving forward while you may guide the dog into the stand with your opposite hand... I use that opposite hand on the back leg to block the forward movement as well. Lots of repetition of this will train the dog to 'kick back' into the stand instead of walking into the stand.

[Ayoka]

We've been working on the landing of our stairs so he won't step ahead - strangely enough his front feet move BACKWARDS now...and don't stay square....one thing at a time I guess...

[moondog]

It may be that his sit is "loose". Remember to work on a nice, tight tuck sit at the same time you're working on the kick-back stand. Seems to me if he's in a tight sit he won't be able to move his feet back when asking for the stand.

Another thought: If you're working with his head to a wall, he may be moving his front feet back in order to avoid bumping his head on the wall (or thinking he's going to bump his head on the wall) when he goes into the stand, because his head has to come forward in order to lift his rear into a standing position. Try using a 2x4, broomstick, piece of PVC, etc., placed in front of his front feet, instead of a wall and see if that helps. The box I use is just a "U" made out of PVC.

Originally Posted by cerulean

Wow, is there really a "correct" way to do puppy-pushups ??? We've just been alternating sit and plotz (butt on the floor, belly on the floor, and back up to butt on the floor).

If you plan to achieve higher levels of obedience....yes...teaching positions is much easier when started correctly to begin with! At the higher levels, any forward movement of the front feet is frowned upon when changing positions.

You want your dog to kick-back into a stand, tuck tight into a sit, fold back into a down, and push forward into a stand....all without moving those front feet. Puppies can do this easily, if taught using a food lure...so there's no reason not to teach it that way to begin with. That way, there's no "rework" needed later (and no frustration, either )

Pair sit with stand, and stand with down when doing puppy pushups, not sit with down (as this encourages the front feet to come forward when going down - it's just natural). Watch those front feet, and teach your puppy to keep them planted when transitioning from one position to another.

If you have no plans for competition, I suppose it really doesn't matter, as long as the puppy learns the exercise and is obedient....but you never know what might spark your interest in a year or two, so might as well aim for the stars from the get go and teach positions as if you were planning on competing.

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by moondog

It may be that his sit is "loose". Remember to work on a nice, tight tuck sit at the same time you're working on the kick-back stand. Seems to me if he's in a tight sit he won't be able to move his feet back when asking for the stand.

Another thought: If you're working with his head to a wall, he may be moving his front feet back in order to avoid bumping his head on the wall (or thinking he's going to bump his head on the wall) when he goes into the stand, because his head has to come forward in order to lift his rear into a standing position. Try using a 2x4, broomstick, piece of PVC, etc., placed in front of his front feet, instead of a wall and see if that helps. The box I use is just a "U" made out of PVC.

We've been working with his feer on the edge of the step of the landing so if the feet go over and he steps down-no click/treat. It would be easy enouigh to find a piece of wood to set in front of his feet-or even practice in FRONT of the stairs so his feet ara against the front step.

I am also thinking that the surface of our hardwood floor & stairs maybe too slippy...I shall try it out on a mat tonight to see if he has better footing.

Now as for the sit, I haven't REALLY thought about that...maybe I have put the cart before the horse on this one....

[moondog]

I know you're in agility classes, too.......do you teach targeting to the ground with a 2 on/2 off contact from a teeter or slightly elevated board? If so, I think teaching the kick-back stand on the edge of a step would be confusing to him. I think a simple barrier (broomstick, etc.) on a flat surface would make it clearer to him what you're trying for.

Chili seems to have been born with a tight sit, LOL, so I haven't had to worry about that so much....thank goodness, because I might not have paid much attention to it, either, early on.

[cerulean]

Thank you, all of you, for the details !! We do want to go on with obediance and sports.... though we don't care one whit about winning, we do want to be proud, and competitions can be a great learning/social experience.

So, it's great to be starting off on the right foot,... umm, I mean, back foot ...

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by moondog

I know you're in agility classes, too.......do you teach targeting to the ground with a 2 on/2 off contact from a teeter or slightly elevated board? If so, I think teaching the kick-back stand on the edge of a step would be confusing to him. I think a simple barrier (broomstick, etc.) on a flat surface would make it clearer to him what you're trying for.

We've been training the 2o2o on a low (flat at first) 1'x4' board and with a target, we haven't even gone near the stairs as I have been thinking about the strain contacts can be on a dog and I think a lot of dogs pop at the end, going a** over teakettle (which makes me cringe) because they don't have the hind-end awareness OR conditioning - we're teaching the 2020 as a down and so far only have the 1x4 raised a foot to build muscle memory/strength.

That aside, a flat surface is what we'll be trialling on in obedience so we would be better of starting there with a 2x4 - one less variable to change. I work on obedience stuff between runs where we train in agility. I like the change of pace and the great distractions that an agility class provides for proofing. I'm gonna get some REAL stranage looks lugging in my 2"x4"

[moondog]

You wouldn't look odd at our class.....we use a cat toy (the one on a little carpeted square with a 12" wire spiral mounted on it..and nicely crowned with a 1" fluff ball and a jingle bell on the top! LOL...it actually works really well - we've been using it to teach "go outs" to a target. Chili has to do a strong enough touch to ring the bell in order to get a reward. I've taught my cat to play with dog toys, so I guess having Chili play with cat toys must be karma, LOL.

We're still only using the landing side with the teeter at about 6" off the ground and practicing the target from just a walk. Our instructor says the 2on/2on MUST become "the happiest place on earth" for our dogs so we don't run into some of those problems. We're teaching it as a play bow, although Chili thinks laying down is good, too. We practice the targeting on a raised board as well. For the hind end awareness, we turn on the plank, do sits and downs and stands...also we use an upside down pot and a big rubber playground ball for the dogs to put their front feet on, and move their hind end around (or all four feet if the dog is agile enough - like an elephant in a circus).

I'm on learning overload between competition obedience and agility, but Chili seems to catch on very nicely in spite of me!

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by moondog

...also we use an upside down pot and a big rubber playground ball for the dogs to put their front feet on, and move their hind end around (or all four feet if the dog is agile enough - like an elephant in a circus).

I'm on learning overload between competition obedience and agility, but Chili seems to catch on very nicely in spite of me!

Hehehe I just got click and play agility and was reading about the elephand trick...LOVE it! A reverse of that (turn on hind end) would be good for carting where they have to be able to pivot the cart without bending their bodies...hmmmm

I too am on information overload but you know, I find that the more Bear learns, the easier it is for him to learn MORE!!! many "new" tricks build on behaviours we've been working on and I LOVE love love watching the wheels turn in his big 'ol head before the "lightbulb moment".