"Pack...Alpha" terms really meaningful?

[Skip]

Ok...is it just me?...When it comes to me and ANY dog, I don't think the "pack, alpha' references (for training,etc..) really holds much water. I'm the boss here, but I've never used the term "Alpha". I really don't think the "alpha" (as in dog pack leader) can really make the jump to a term to describe a person. Two completely different species. It just seems silly and not accurate to base the relationship on "pack" order. I've always been in charge with all my dogs, and they all have done well in the training. Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I am starting to read about some trainers that feel the same way...kind of like the old "alpha roll" mentality. You are either in charge, or you are not in charge, but you are not a dog, and are not part of any "pack".

[dipper]

Hi Skip,
Please, don't take this the wrong way, but it doesn't matter what YOU think it matters what your DOG thinks.
If you want to substitute the word "boss" for the word "alpha" I don't think anyone outside of a professional school or some anal person would argue with you.
I don't believe dogs think in terms of species either---doesn't matter to them.
Dogs most certainly do believe and see things in pack order--you might not but they do--its all they know--it is how they relate to those around them whether human or dog.
I never equate "alpha-roll" mentality with projecting the "role of the Alpha."
You are either in charge or your not---or--you are either the boss or not--or--you are either the Alpha or not---makes no difference to me what terms you use.
Yeah, WE know we are not dogs--we are a little higher up on the developmental scale--but do we know what our dogs think and should we expect their reasoning to be anywhere near ours??
I see a difference in the actions of my dogs when my children come home for a visit---they always act a little different--they greet them differently than my wife or I--they act differently at meal time---etc.
The "pack" has changed and so do the dynamics.


Rich

[Skip]

Originally Posted by dipper

Hi Skip,
Please, don't take this the wrong way, but it doesn't matter what YOU think it matters what your DOG thinks.
If you want to substitute the word "boss" for the word "alpha" I don't think anyone outside of a professional school or some anal person would argue with you.
I don't believe dogs think in terms of species either---doesn't matter to them.
Dogs most certainly do believe and see things in pack order--you might not but they do--its all they know--it is how they relate to those around them whether human or dog.
I never equate "alpha-roll" mentality with projecting the "role of the Alpha."
You are either in charge or your not---or--you are either the boss or not--or--you are either the Alpha or not---makes no difference to me what terms you use.
Yeah, WE know we are not dogs--we are a little higher up on the developmental scale--but do we know what our dogs think and should we expect their reasoning to be anywhere near ours??
I see a difference in the actions of my dogs when my children come home for a visit---they always act a little different--they greet them differently than my wife or I--they act differently at meal time---etc.
The "pack" has changed and so do the dynamics.


Rich

Actually, it does matter a lot more what I think (as opposed to what the dog thinks), and please, don't take this the wrong way, you really can only tell what YOU think. We have no idea exactly what the dog thinks. I guess part of it is just due to some research of mine. Not all wild canines that dogs evolved from grew up in "packs". Many of today's wild canines,...foxes and coyotes for example, and even some wolf species, are pretty much solitary. Sometimes I think the over-usage of our "pack" reasoning is to overly humanize our dogs because a pack (FAMILY) scenario is a little more romantic and appealing to US. Your sentence :but do we know what our dogs think and should we expect their reasoning to be anywhere near ours?? sort of vaildates my reasoning. Why should OUR success on training our dogs equate to any "pack" reasoning that they MIGHT have. I guess I agree with "whatever works", and all my dogs over the last 20 years have proven themselves on the training fields, but the more and more I train, the less and less I see the benefit in using any "dog pack" similarities in my training or my terminology. Man has domesticated dog which has caused many alterations in what a dog was then, and I guess it's impossible to tell at what level a dog really "includes" us, today or a thousand years ago, but my feelings are getting stronger that a dog is smart enough to separate us from any "pack" scenario that MIGHT have existed thousands of years ago.

[hcelsa]

Originally Posted by Skip

Ok...is it just me?...When it comes to me and ANY dog, I don't think the "pack, alpha' references (for training,etc..) really holds much water. I'm the boss here, but I've never used the term "Alpha". I really don't think the "alpha" (as in dog pack leader) can really make the jump to a term to describe a person. Two completely different species. It just seems silly and not accurate to base the relationship on "pack" order. I've always been in charge with all my dogs, and they all have done well in the training.

Nope, it's not just you . I agree 100%! I'm the leader in my household, but I'm definitely not a dog, and I don't pretend to be one.

[dipper]

Hi Skip,
I think we have two different scenarios going here --probably my fault.
I believe we/I may be intermingling two separate things.
If you are standing on the field with your helper in front of you and training your dog, that is very different than your dog living with you and maybe 3 other family members.
Your dog still has to see you as the "boss" or "in charge" or "alpha" if you are to have good success in training---he must respect you or he will not obey you.
When your dog is living in a home with parents and children, the pack order does come into play.
Do you have to consider "pack" behavior while training? probably not to any great extent.
Should you consider it a mealtime with children in the house? definitely.
Interesting that you mentioned wolves, I used to sit and watch them for hours at times.
I used to live in PA and there was a gentleman that had about 15 or so of the last remaining Lobo Wolves---near Sheffield PA.
I learned a lot from watching these wolves and from speaking with the gentleman that owned them---the interaction of the wolves with themselves and with the owner was something to see.
I don't see how we can expect dogs to act or address us in any other way than what they have learned through thousands of years of evolution.
And yes, all dog species do grow up in packs, it's called a litter--they learn what they need to learn from the bitch and the interaction with their littermates and then they are driven out to be on their own for the survival of the species---some may live solitary adult lives but they darn sure started out as members of a pack.

Rich

[dipper]

hcelsa,
Yes, but tell me---how do you know what your DOG thinks??

Rich

[Skip]

Originally Posted by dipper

Hi Skip,
I think we have two different scenarios going here --probably my fault.
I believe we/I may be intermingling two separate things.
If you are standing on the field with your helper in front of you and training your dog, that is very different than your dog living with you and maybe 3 other family members.
Your dog still has to see you as the "boss" or "in charge" or "alpha" if you are to have good success in training---he must respect you or he will not obey you.
When your dog is living in a home with parents and children, the pack order does come into play.
Do you have to consider "pack" behavior while training? probably not to any great extent.
Should you consider it a mealtime with children in the house? definitely.
Interesting that you mentioned wolves, I used to sit and watch them for hours at times.
I used to live in PA and there was a gentleman that had about 15 or so of the last remaining Lobo Wolves---near Sheffield PA.
I learned a lot from watching these wolves and from speaking with the gentleman that owned them---the interaction of the wolves with themselves and with the owner was something to see.
I don't see how we can expect dogs to act or address us in any other way than what they have learned through thousands of years of evolution.
And yes, all dog species do grow up in packs, it's called a litter--they learn what they need to learn from the bitch and the interaction with their littermates and then they are driven out to be on their own for the survival of the species---some may live solitary adult lives but they darn sure started out as members of a pack.

Rich

I disagree...I don't think the "dog pack" scenario needs used in a home environment either. Actually, the home scenario is definitely VERY different than any "pack" ranking in the wild. If we use the pack analogy, there is only one "alpha" in a wild canine pack. Everybody else is subordinate. In a human home scenario, EVERYBODY (humans) (and you know I dislike using the word) should be "alpha" to the dog. One hundred and eighty degrees opposite and VERY CONTRARY to the ancient "pack". Also, no, ALL dog species do not grow up in packs just because they start off life with multiple siblings. Many wild male canines must leave the group at a young age, to start their own group (or to stay totally independent at times) so that inbreeding doesn't occur. A mother (human) teaches a child at a young age how to mingle and interact with others (many times at daycare), but I don't understand your point. Many living things grow up in the company of others, humans much longer than most, but they differ at some real basic levels. Can we learn a couple things about why a dog might act a certain way because of it's ancestors? SURE>>> but I'm not one of it's ancestors, and I will never be (or attempt to be) one... the dog has been domesticated to live in our world, not vice versa. I see a lot of people excuse a dog's lousy breeding and fear-biting as an inaccurate description of being "protective" like it's ancestors. Sometimes I see it used as an excuse to justify lack of training. Go ahead and (pretend and kid yourself in my opinion) keep thinking you are part of your dog's pack. When the dog evolves to walking on 2 legs, gets a job, and helps me pay the bills, then it can be part of MY pack.

[dipper]

Skip,
I'll admit that I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and I have lost your point.
I disagree with your thoughts on the home scenario being VERY different as to what takes place in the wild--yes in the wild there is one Alpha and everyone else is subordinate ---and its the same thing in our families.
If you think that your dog that may live in a family of 5 people looks at everyone of them as an ALPHA you are wrong---he/she doesn't---whether you think they do or should does not matter they don't.
They don't strike out or attack or correct your 6 year old child (if YOU are alpha and have trained them) because they know you as the alpha will not permit it--NOT because they look at the children as alphas---and that is just what happens in the wild, the alpha sets the tone for the pack---who eats and when---who mates--who fights and when etc.etc.
Its seems obvious to state that human children and canine animals grow up,learn and mature at much different rates there is and can be no comparison to the two at a developmental level.
Lastly, we (humans) are of course not dogs and should not act like dogs, it is very helpful in living with dogs to understand how THEY think and use this in training and daily life with them----why not??
You say -- "go ahead and kid yourself that you are part of your dogs pack" --you don't get it!! HE IS A PART OF MY PACK--not the other way around---THAT is what being alpha means.
It's all good though--what you say generally flies in the face of everything I have ever been taught or read---maybe you'll break some new ground in canine behavior and we'll all be adjusting our training and thinking to yours someday---it could happen---new things pop up everyday.
In the mean time, I'll struggle along and we can agree to disagree.

Peace Man!!

Rich

[Zumie05]

Originally Posted by hcelsa

I'm definitely not a dog, and I don't pretend to be one.

Maybe the dogs think that they are people!?

[spidey]

Skip, as always, you bring a breath of fresh air. I couldn't agree with you more, and in fact I often wish the general dog-owning public had never even HEARD the term "alpha", it is misused, misunderstood, and often used as an excuse for bullying or intimidating a dog instead of actually training it. The vast majority of people have a very poor understanding of pack dynamics (especially the more modern research which shows that we don't understand pack dynamics well at all: they are rarely static, they are very fluid and situational), especially as regards body language and day to day existence. We absolutely should train dogs with an eye on what makes sense to a dog in terms of how their minds work and how they learn, but we are not dogs, we cannot even approximate dogs beyond some very basic body language, so we should not pretend that behaving as if we were dogs is useful.

Living well with dogs is all about understanding how their minds work and finding ways to communicate which are accessible to BOTH species. Dogs are masters of body language and adaptability, we do them a great disservice by thinking that they only understand "pack dynamics" and "alpha", especially when most of the people who use these terms as regards training don't even really understand them.

[debbiej]

I have often sighed at the term alpha. no cross species roll playing is necessary to be a fair and consistent human "master". the dog knows we are not dogs. we know we are not dogs. dogs are smart enough to learn to live in our world, by our rules, and for the most part seem happy to do so.

trendy terms can be so tiresome, and misleading. I think this is a perfect example of one.

[brunie's mom]

Originally Posted by debbiej

I have often sighed at the term alpha. no cross species roll playing is necessary to be a fair and consistent human "master". the dog knows we are not dogs. we know we are not dogs. dogs are smart enough to learn to live in our world, by our rules, and for the most part seem happy to do so.

trendy terms can be so tiresome, and misleading. I think this is a perfect example of one.

You can thank Cesar Milan for the trendy word of "ALPHA" and pack leader. He seems to throw it around all of the time...and people are very impressed by it.

I prefer to use the word leader....because someone has to be in charge...and it better not be the dog.

Gina

[dipper]

Alpha is a term that has been used for decades and is not a "trendy" or hip word.
It has nothing to do with cross species role playing.
If you want to substitute the word master, thats fine with me because it actually means the same thing as far as your dog is concerned---and if people use the word for an excuse for bullying or intimidating a dog, that's their and unfortunately their dogs problem---I don't agree with that kind of training.
Like I said before, many petite,small, gentle people make very good dog trainers---nothing to do with physical strength ----just MENTAL strength.
Of course pack dynamics change constantly and are fluid we are not statues nor do we do the same thing constantly and who said ANYTHING bout pretending to be or imitating a dog being useful--I missed that!!
Use whatever words you want to use to describe behavior or the interaction between us and our dogs--I don't care---I just think the most important thing is to understand why things happen and just as important, why they don't.

Peace,

Rich

[Skip]

I think part of it stems from a lot of people's need to analyze, disect, write "new" how-to-do-it books (just to make a few bucks), and a need to take it to some "intuitive, get inside the dog's mind" crap. Training dogs and making them good pets is really not all that difficult. I'm just amazed at all the crazy methods, terminology, and theories that people try in order to do something that's really pretty damn simple.

[hcelsa]

Originally Posted by dipper

hcelsa,
Yes, but tell me---how do you know what your DOG thinks??

How do you know what my dogs think?

I know that my dogs can quite easily tell that I am not a dog. I walk on two legs rather than four, I'm not hairy, I don't sniff their butts or allow them to sniff mine . They can "think" enough to understand the difference between sheep, ducks, and cattle (and work them quite differently)...I'm sure they are quite capable of understanding that humans are not dogs .