"Pack...Alpha" terms really meaningful?

[dipper]

hcelsa,

Well, sometimes my wife tells me I am not much different than the dogs!!
Most of the time, I walk on two legs but have been known to get down on all fours.
At times, I am very hairy.
As far as butt sniffing goes...well...um,ah...OK Guilty!!
I also know the difference between sheep, ducks, and cattle but can't herd worth the darn--well, maybe a few Geese in the backyard.
I'm pretty sure I know the difference between dogs and humans but some days the line gets fuzzy!! LOL!!

Peace,


Rich

[Obelix]

If you wants to know how and what your dog thinks a lot of information is available.Since many years dogs and their behaviour have been studied,up to you if you want to learn and use this (scientific) info instead of the hearsay and supposed things.

[spidey]

Originally Posted by Obelix

If you wants to know how and what your dog thinks a lot of information is available.Since many years dogs and their behaviour have been studied,up to you if you want to learn and use this (scientific) info instead of the hearsay and supposed things.

Very true. The problem arises when people use misinterpreted information from 30 year old studies and ignore the more modern research which either disproves or radically changes that information. Which is precisely what Cesar Millan and others who adhere to "alpha theory" training are doing. You don't get to just pick the information which backs up your preconceived notions, and then claim you're using "science", when what in fact you're doing is ignoring anything which contradicts what you have already decided that you want to do. There's no argument that dogs can be trained a variety of different ways, but sometimes, as Jean Donaldson says, they learn IN SPITE of how we teach them, not because of how we teach them. If there are better, equally effective ways to train dogs than outdated alpha theory (which can have many unwanted side effects), which are based on extensive study of dog behaviour management and learning, why on earth would someone ignore them?

[Canula2000]

Thank you for bringing this up...I never have thought that I am in a pack with my dogs. I am their human and they like to be near me because I provide them easy food and entertainment.
I think with my dogs they are constantly in a trade mode...they do what I want and during the day they are rewarded with food or play. A working relationship with human and dog.

[cally01]

A really interesting book I read is called "Dogs A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior & Evolution" by Raymond Coppinger and Lorna coppinger. Raymond Coppinger is a professor of biology at Hampshire College and has written a wonderful book with scientific basis of dogs and other candids.

I found it really interesting when he discusses dog sled teams and how they work and how much different the social aspects of of dogs compared to wolves. He is also a dog sled dog racing champion.

Here is part of a quote in his book.

"The idea that I would go out and pay five thousand dollars for a lead dog, bring it home, and let it fight the rest of the dogs to see if they accept it as the alpha male and leader has to be hilarious. The last thing and dog driver wants is a dog fight. Not only can valuable animals be hurt, but animosities between individuals would constantly stress the team effort. I don't want any dog to feel bad about its rank on the team, or continually test its position. I don't want the dogs submissive to me. Imagine them all on their backs, peeing in the air every time I showed up.
On a twelve - or sixteen dogs team, the leaders are usually paired. The leaders can be paired as males or females. What does that do to the theory of the alpha dog? tow female alpha dogs? A dog team with good depth has many leaders. It has alternates that the driver can substitute up front to replace animals too tired to keep a winning pace.
Dogs are not wolves. Dogs are not running as a pack. A pack is about chasing something. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running. They are motivated by something the animal behaviorists call social facilitation."

I also found it interesting the way Raymond Coppinger explains how dogs evolved. Basically the way he explains it is dogs, Wolves, coyotes and other candids have the same distant relative that is now extinct. Dogs domesticated themselves basically by becoming scavengers off man.

That is his theory and he makes a very valid points and has science to back him up in his studies. In some parts of the book it may be a bit contradictive though.

Anyhow I thought I would share in case anyone was interested.

[AlphaLeader]

Alpha... Master... Owner... Leader... Trainer... all the same to me. They all denote a position of authority which we have over our animals.

My martial arts instructor many years ago... was called Master... that didn't mean I was his slave. It set him apart as the Teacher... one who was to be respected. When I refer to myself as Alpha, I am referring to the one that feeds the dogs, trains the dogs, etc... I could use the word Trainer or Master instead... I just like the word Alpha as it means 1... we make out dogs wait as we go through doors... we eat first... seems appropriate. Also, it denotes that I tell them what to do, not the other way around.

As to the "pack" thing... I have worked in rescue as well as owning always more than one dog... there is a pecking order. To me... a pack is like a family... so to have them in my pack simply means they are part of my family.

It's all wording... and I used those words long before ceasar. I understand your thinking, I think... but to me, it's all wording and preference.

[cally01]

I agree Alphaleader :) I think what bothers some people who work with dogs is the images that come to "some" dog owners minds when you say Alpha. I have noticed some people misconstrue the meaning and don't think of it as just being number one...which in reality alpha means just that. For some reason some dog owners mainly novice owners have images of dominating, alpha rolls, pinning, ear pinching and other things such as this seem to flash through their mind of how a dog should be trained if you are alpha of your pack.

That is the reason we avoid using the word alpha and pack around clients. We use benevolent leader, master, and group it just helps some dog owners realize that dogs learn much better through positive training and suppression techniques can actually hinder training. There was a good article on benevolent leader in the WDJ about year ago.

[dipper]

Cally01,

Thanks for the info. on the book and it may be worth reading but going by the quote you choose, I'm not yet convinced.
When the author says:

"The idea that I would go out and pay five thousand dollars for a lead dog, bring it home, and let it fight the rest of the dogs to see if they accept it as the alpha male and leader has to be hilarious. The last thing and dog driver wants is a dog fight. Not only can valuable animals be hurt, but animosities between individuals would constantly stress the team effort. I don't want any dog to feel bad about its rank on the team, or continually test its position. I don't want the dogs submissive to me. Imagine them all on their backs, peeing in the air every time I showed up.

I would say to the author:
Yes, no kidding it would be hilarious and STUPID for you to throw a NEW dog into the mix and let it fight the rest of the dogs to see if they accept it as the alpha---because whether they would or not, you can bet that there WOULD be a fight and you may have a dead dog or dogs in the morning---depending on the NEW dog introduced to the original pack.
That is why sled dogs are usually kenneled or tied out separately--and--there are fights sometimes even when the dogs are in the harness--happens all the time and if this guy is a champion sled dog racer, I am SURE he must have seen this.
I don't see any NEW ground here---it seems he MAY acknowledge the fact that if he introduced a new dog, there could/would be a fight without his interference--like keeping them separated and when its time making a slow and cautious intro.
Sound like typical pack order to me---nothing new.
When he says:
"A pack is about chasing something. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running. They are motivated by something the animal behaviorists call social facilitation."

There is a lot more to pack behavior than "chasing something".
JEEZ, I can't believe some one with his credentials boils down pack behavior to "chasing something" really!!
Social facilitation is a real part of pack life---like when wolves, African wild dogs, and Coyotes etc. work together to bring down a kill---that is an example of social facilitation.
Watch what kind of behavior takes place AFTER the kill and you will get a real good idea of another part of pack behavior---and it will have nothing to do with "chasing something".
Nothing new here.
I hope he sells a lot of books--I also hope he gets questions from some of his peers on some of his views.
Sorry for the long post.

Rich

[RottsNScotts]

I think the problem lies in that people who "get it" about training and working with dogs (or other animals for that matter) usually, at some point, get asked or paid to give people who don't "get it" lessons on how to "get it". Because we communicate verbally, the person who "gets it" has to find some words to try to draw a picture the person who doesn't "get it" can have a hope of understanding. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't but it does end up misnaming, limiting, overanalyzing the whole human-dog relationship.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

I think the problem lies in that people who "get it" about training and working with dogs (or other animals for that matter) usually, at some point, get asked or paid to give people who don't "get it" lessons on how to "get it". Because we communicate verbally, the person who "gets it" has to find some words to try to draw a picture the person who doesn't "get it" can have a hope of understanding. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't but it does end up misnaming, limiting, overanalyzing the whole human-dog relationship.

That is one of the greatest things I have ever read here. It could fit so many posts.

Mick.

[cally01]

dipper, I enjoyed the book by Raymond Coppinger. But, like anything it all comes down to taking out of it what you think is correct and what makes sense and what applies to your own experiences :)

I enjoyed the book because it helped me a great deal with my rescue Rottweiler Athena. Once I learned about predatory drives it helped me understand some of her aggression issues. Which btw were worked on and solved by the time she was 3 years of age. I also had the help of a wonderful behaviorist.

[LynnS]

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

I think the problem lies in that people who "get it" about training and working with dogs (or other animals for that matter) usually, at some point, get asked or paid to give people who don't "get it" lessons on how to "get it". Because we communicate verbally, the person who "gets it" has to find some words to try to draw a picture the person who doesn't "get it" can have a hope of understanding. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't but it does end up misnaming, limiting, overanalyzing the whole human-dog relationship.

This should be a sticky!

[Skip]

Originally Posted by RottsNScotts

I think the problem lies in that people who "get it" about training and working with dogs (or other animals for that matter) usually, at some point, get asked or paid to give people who don't "get it" lessons on how to "get it". Because we communicate verbally, the person who "gets it" has to find some words to try to draw a picture the person who doesn't "get it" can have a hope of understanding. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't but it does end up misnaming, limiting, overanalyzing the whole human-dog relationship.

I agree that this part happens a lot. Especially the overanalyzing part. Keeping the training upbeat, simple, consistent, the corrections and rewards timely and appropriate go an awful long way.

[RottsNScotts]

Gee guys, you are making me blush!!! VBG!

I know that it is one of the great frustrations in my life to work with people who don't "get it". I am incapable of understanding WHY they don't get it but have reached the age and experience level to accept that they just don't!

I think a lot of the things we advise folks looking for help here are just artificial tools to try to help them at least be able to "pretend" to be leaders to their dogs. Fortunately, dogs, who obviously can see right through this, are very forgiving and are willing to cut us some slack. Unfortunately, some people are not even good pretenders.

[IJF1]

In the UK, words such as 'pack', 'Alpha' 'Dominance' are bandied around all the time, usually by people with poorly trained dogs who have read certain books or watched certain TV programs. There are a lot of confused people out there who are convinced that their dog will take over the world if they do not eat before the dog and walk through doorways first.

Be a fair and consistent leader and your dog will respond well to that - whether it thinks you are 'alpha' or 'pack leader' is speculation and makes no difference IMO.