Training Class Incident

[AmandaAgnew-1987]

I got my rottie (male) at 15 weeks. he's now just over 5 months and on his last week of a 6 week training course. He has always been well behaved at this class, probably the best out of all the other pups. the other pups (who are a lot smaller) can jump all over him, run at him and bark etc and he doesnt flinch.when it comes to strange people he is an angel and just loves the attention. last week at our training class we were practising the down command, he didnt go down straight away and our trainer took hold of him to try it herself, however when she done this he snapped at her, straight away she pulled him up by the leash and started pushing and pulling him violently from side to side shouting "DONT YOU EVER EVEN THINK ABOUT IT". i was horrified to see my pup terrified and shaking on the floor. he was literally trembling, i bent down to see if he was ok to which he leaped into my chest and couried in. The trainer then said "do not let him suck up to you" i, for one do not think he was sucking up but mearly wanting me to protect him. as i looked about i could see the other owners looking on straight faced. for the rest of the class i had to physically drag my pup (which i was reluctant to do) to the floor as he wouldnt go near the instructor.i've never been in this situation before and would like to know what other people think about this. i know he shouldnt have snapped, he had been sick earlier in the day so i dont know if this has anything to do with it.but i was under the impression when disciplining you weren't supposed to scare the dog????? HELP!

[Cdn1050]

I'm not a dog expert but I've never heard of a trainer training by shaking and screaming at a puppy. I personally think the trainer was out of line and I would refuse to let her handle your dog again. You want your puppy to have positive experiences, and you want him to enjoy going to obedience classes. Do you train with treats? If not purchase a package of chicken, turkey or all beef hot dogs. Take one hot dog and slice it into 100 little pieces. After each command, praise and treat. He will go into a down position immediately if he knows there's something good to come if he does. If the trainer disapproves of treats, bring them anyways and give them to him when he obeys a command. He's young, being a stinker and he's testing to see what he can get away with. If he was sick earlier in the day, it's possible that he wasn't feeling well and reacted out of not feeling well, but to me sounds like he was testing.

[moondog]

I am normally pretty diplomatic about situations that create conflict......however......I would have told this instructor to get her FREAKING HANDS OFF MY DOG and DO NOT EVER LAY A HAND ON HIM AGAIN.

There is NO excuse to use fear and intimidation as an instructional tool for any dog, and especially for a 5 month old puppy!

That instructor would not see my face or my dog's face again and certainly wouldn't get another dime out of me.

[Sasha's Mom]

That poor pup!!!!! Moondog is right, NO trainer should ever use fear and intimidation as tools for training. It has nothing to do with establishing leadership, all it does is to enhance fear aggression in dogs. Please discontinue any business with her, and look around for a trainer that actually does TRAINING instead of scaring.

[zorro13]

Amanda: Do NOT go back to this trainer. This trainer is clueless. I'm so mad I can't even type.

[MonicaBH]

Agreed with everyone else. Don't go back, don't give her any more of your $$$ and take $$$ out of her pocket by discouraging people to go to her.

I would have shown my arse in such a bad way had I been in your situation. I don't lay hands on my dogs; I'll be damned if someone else does.

[AmandaAgnew-1987]

Thats for replying everyone. i was soooo mad i was ready to punch her, take my pup and leave! i dont know if she was trying to make some sort of example because of his breed, also because i am quite young and she seems to have it in her head that i wont be able to handle him.we do use treats when training him, but also practice commands with just affection as a treat. i have been reading a lot of books and reading on here, im not saying i know everything but i really am trying to learn as much as i can.
this is one of the first times at the class that he hasnt carried out a command straight away, and usually the instructor is praising him for being the best. i dont know why she couldnt see that he was having an off day, since she does "know so much about dogs" supposedly. Well this week is the final week of training where he will recieve a certificate. i dont want to not go because we both have worked hard practicing, however if there is anything out of line this week i can asure you all she will regret it. Although i certainly will be looking for a course elsewhere after this one.Thanks everyone.

[poohbearsmom]

First of all, the teacher should not have handled the "down" in that manner.

There are other, less confrontational, less conflicting ways to teach a down, and your instructor obviously does not think outside the box.

Secondly, it sounds like a "zoo" and not a class, if all the puppies are running around with each other.

I would not take my dog back to this instructor.

Research working dog trainers in your area, please, and seek someone who is well versed in operant conditioning techniques.

[Marylou Mader]

What type of class was this? A kennel club?, a private group? A letter of complaint is due. I never take my students dogs away from them, now that this pup has experienced such a negative from a stranger, this could have very bad consequences. Demand a new instructor, or leave and don't go back...

[AmandaAgnew-1987]

its a private group. theres maybe about 10 (approx) puppys and just the one instructer with a couple of helpers. i think she knew she had went too far because she then said "amanda do you have a toy or something, try and cheer him up." she also tried to give him a treat but he didnt really look like he wanted it. one thing i will say that she mentioned was that this "would give him more confidence" something like "because it shows him whos the leader" or some crap. how the hell that can be i will never know. i think now that i know this is definatley out of order i will make a complaint to her myself this weekend.

[Ayoka]

Oh wow, I can't believe someone would treat a dog like that period. I would not go back and I would write a letter. There is a group that trians this way locally and I do everything I can to discourage people from going there. There's a lot of business to be lost when word of mouth gets around.

I had something similar happen and was also too shocked to say anything. I have learned since not to trust too many people with MY dogm and I could count those people on one hand - and still have fingers left over.

[spidey]

Find another trainer, who uses modern, science-based, operant conditioning methods. Sounds like this trainer hasn't got a clue about dog training.

[lgslgs]

I'd avoid that trainer and do some training over the next few days to make sure he has very positive associations with the "down" command.

One useful way to do that is have him sit, use a hand on his collar to keep him from going out of the sit, put a kibble between his feet, wait until he really wants to get to that kibble, and then release him into a down position to enjoy his snack. Sometimes you might need to steer or aim him a bit to get it right, but you'll be working with him already moving in the right direction so it's quite easy and fun.

Down can sometimes be a somewhat vunerable position for a dog. Add in the less familiar location of a training class with distractions, and then a stranger trying to push and fold you into position when a pup is trying to figure out what is being expected and it's not surprising that a puppy might attempt to protect it's space.

A trainer turning that situation into that level of conflict is just crazy. If your pup was truly having a bit of an aggressive moment she could have just put him through his paces for a few minutes with sits and leash walking to switch him back into working FOR her instaid of against her.

One of my pet peeves is seeing "trainers" who make down a heavy handed activity or a conflict exercise. There's not much that's more beautiful than a Rott that will joyfully fly into a down position on command, and you don't get that by intimidating or brutalizing a dog that's trying to learn what it's supposed to be doing.

Lynda

[Ostory]

We have two seperate issues here.

First, the correction given to the pup for attempting to rebel against the trainer. A correction is needed here, but this one was over the top. Obviously, it was based on fear by the handler/trainer. It is not uncommon, for the fear of getting bite by the dog to cause an over reaction by a handler.

Second issue, is one of Pack order. For this reason I would have rebucked the trainer, and protected my dog. One major reason dogs don't look to their owns as Alpha leaders is because they don't lead. By allowing an individual outside the pack to dominate both the pup and the owner, the owner has shown great weakness to the pup. Even when I take my adult dogs to the Vet, I play act with the Vet after something like a shot is given. I will push the Vet away from my dog, and warn him not to hurt my dog. The Vet finds this amusing, but I must be able to walk out on a Schutzhund with my dog off lead and he must trust that I am in charge. If I demonstraight to him that I am not in charge from time to time, how can he trust me?

The dog did need a correction after it got to this point. A good trainer would have never allowed it to reach such a point. The owner's instincts was correct, but too often peer pressure will cause them to do the wrong thing.

I don't like to see obedience place on such young dogs.

[dipper]

Amanda,

You don't give a very specific outline on what exactly happened.
How did the trainer "take hold of him?"
Did she take the leash? Did she grab the dog? Was she loud and rough with him from the start?
Was the reaction from the dog a fear based snap or was it aggression?
Do you know the difference? Were you watching closely to see how the dog was acting before the snap??
All of this does matter when talking about the reaction of the trainer.
I DO NOT advocate the trainer VIOLENTLY shaking the dog by the leash but IF this was an act of aggression by the pup, a correction was in order---please, I am not advocating a beating or a very harsh correction---I'm saying if the dog snapped out of aggression, he MUST be told that behavior is unacceptable.

If your puppy has any hardness in him at all, he has forgotten about the incident.
He is not broken and will be fine.
If the reaction was out of fear, then a weakness in your pup was discovered and that is beneficial to both you and your pup.
If the reaction was out of fear, the trainer should have saw it coming (if she is observant and knowledgeable) and she never should have done what she did.

I would ask the trainer why she did what she did--I would ask her why she thought a correction like that was warranted.
If she was rough and intimidating with your pup when she approached him ( before the snap) and scared him, she isn't the trainer for you.


Rich