Training Class Incident

[linedog]

This is why I hate to see the "get him into obediance" advice given to new or inexperianced owners here on this forum. In fact this very inexperiance means the owner usually cannot interpret the expertise or level of experiance the OB trainer has,until something like this happens, and too often the "cure" for real or perceived problems is worse than the problem. I much more favor even just a short session with a behaviorist familiar with working dogs or someone who actively trains with working dogs.Obediance is too often a one size fits all type training that just doesn't work well with Rotts. Like Ostory I have never seen the need for heavy obediance on a young dog, I teach them what they need to be house liveable and to be out and about for socialization,I have never felt the need to micro- manage them as pups, mostly I just let them be pups.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by AmandaAgnew-1987

I got my rottie (male) at 15 weeks. he's now just over 5 months and on his last week of a 6 week training course. He has always been well behaved at this class, probably the best out of all the other pups. the other pups (who are a lot smaller) can jump all over him, run at him and bark etc and he doesnt flinch.when it comes to strange people he is an angel and just loves the attention.

Originally Posted by AmandaAgnew-1987

i was horrified to see my pup terrified and shaking on the floor. he was literally trembling

i was under the impression when disciplining you weren't supposed to scare the dog????? HELP!

Originally Posted by dipper

If she was rough and intimidating with your pup when she approached him ( before the snap) and scared him, she isn't the trainer for you.

Sure sounds like that's what happened to me. A happy, sociable puppy (and this one certainly appears to be) does not react in this way unless he's been "given" cause.

[Snorey]

Amanda - that is terrible! So terrible for me to read because it has nearly happened to me. I used to take my bitch in england to a 'traditional' training club where this sort of training used to go on. i knew the guy (family friend unfortunelty) he was ex police. He was very hands on- physical. Funny enough he never handled my dog, i actually said to him time after time ''Show me and i will get a better idea'' because i saw him take hold of someones dog and treat it like this and i didnt want him handling her. I felt awful but knew of nothing else. i ddint know what to do. All i did know was that by the time my dog was 8 months old she had SWITCHED OFF from me at training because she was trying to block out all of the physical stuff she saw going on and she didnt like. So i introduced treats and she picked up but the trainer did not agree. i had to find another trainer.

Unfortunetly she became reactive to stressful situations because she had seen violence go on or physical man handling of dogs near her which i have worked her through thank goodness.

i found an APDT trainer. there will be some in scotland - find one. Because they are positive reinforcement based and because they are on a kennel club ran register they hold a really high standard of training. Alot of the Apdt trainers are Clicker trainers and will introduce you to it if you want to try. Personally i feel this turned my puppy around and she became so interested in obedience that she bounces round my feet and offers behaviours when she sees the clicker. She enjoys it.

She is now read for her first obedience comp.


Horrible scenario for you and your boy - the poor thing. The fact that she said DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT makes me think she knew she was out of her depth. I feel for you i bet you were so angry i would have been!!!

[stale]

to the OP (amanda)

i would get out of the class, and stay out. i would also file a formal complaint with the organisers of the "class". specifying the "trainer's" name, and the incident that led to this. there must be a real qualified trainer somewhere near you, so you won't have to go back to this person.

sounds like the trainer has been watching/reading to much CM.

intimidation and abuse are NEVER the answer to training a dog. and, in my opinion, the dog did exactly the right thing in coming to you. as pack leader, it is your role to protect the dog from outside threats, which is exactly what this so called trainer presented themselves as.

i'm thinking this person is also very lucky you're a more tolerant person than i am. personally, i would have had my dog out of there and somewhere safe (crate in the car, as an example) then would have gone and shaken and yelled at the trainer, then asked her just how reassuring SHE found that as an educational tool?

in 20 years of dog handling, including 10 years working with an instructor as an assistant, i've yet to encounter ANY behavior where shaking a dog is even vaguely an acceptable correction. at most, a loud vocal correction and a swift sharp pop should be all that's needed for any dog, ever. CM style abuse and confrontation can ruin a good dog easily, if you don't take steps to repair/mitigate the damage done.

i'd spend a good deal of time reinforcing the down with a positive connotation (treats for every second or third down, praise for EVERY SINGLE down.)

hopefully you have better luck with other trainers if you continue with obedience or work training. a well trained, eager dog is a wonderful thing to behold.

peace, eh?

stale

[Kawakaze]

I wouldnt take my dog back there! The only time i touch my dogs like that is after a nip, but then it is only a loud no, and a tap under the chin or round the scruff of the neck, and then he gets a timeout in the yard for 15mins. I was told by a trainer the only time you really hit a dog is if it puts a person in danger and appears to want to follow the attack through, not just a warning nip (that was probably out of self defence?)

If the trainer scared your dog so much he was shaking I cant see that teaaching your dog anything other than fear of humans. This trained proffesional obviously needs more training herself

[Ayoka]

Originally Posted by Kawakaze

I was told by a trainer the only time you really hit a dog is if it puts a person in danger and appears to want to follow the attack through, not just a warning nip (that was probably out of self defence?)

IIMHO, if a dog is attacking people, the LAST thing you want to do is get physical!

A dog that uncontrollable needs a one way trip to the vet - not a smack.

[Maxxx]

In our last OB class, Max ignored my down command as well. I use the word settle. Nothing I did, could make him even look at me! The trainer showed me a way to get him to settle if all else fails. You kneel beside him to his right, take your right hand and lift his right elbow up a bit and then with your left hand, sweep his left shoulder towards you (that puts them off balance) and then gently glide them to the floor. No correction, no violence.

Definitely don't go back. I don't think there's ever a time to shake your dog. It's not right to shake a baby, so why would it be right to shake a pup? Someone should grab her and shake her and see how she likes it!

[lblax]

Originally Posted by linedog

This is why I hate to see the "get him into obediance" advice given to new or inexperianced owners here on this forum. In fact this very inexperiance means the owner usually cannot interpret the expertise or level of experiance the OB trainer has,until something like this happens, and too often the "cure" for real or perceived problems is worse than the problem. I much more favor even just a short session with a behaviorist familiar with working dogs or someone who actively trains with working dogs.Obediance is too often a one size fits all type training that just doesn't work well with Rotts. Like Ostory I have never seen the need for heavy obediance on a young dog, I teach them what they need to be house liveable and to be out and about for socialization,I have never felt the need to micro- manage them as pups, mostly I just let them be pups.

outside of the behavorist part. this is really great sound advice all a pup needs is manners and soialization and i dont even start to train a platz until the dog is over 7 months old.

[alice's mommy]

Horrible experience! Sounds like your trainer had a temper-tantrum!! Didn't want the big bad rottie showing her up in class. Run, don't walk, away from there! If you can't trust your trainer, what's the point!?
I, too, would be complaining!

[AmandaAgnew-1987]

thanks everyone for helping me out with this. after all that, i returned to the class for the last in the blocked booking (couldnt have done all that work then have my boy and not let him get his reward for completing the course!). Needless to say Diesel passed his test and done all the commands i asked him first time and they were all excellent. Funnily enough all the trainer could do the full time was praise him and myself for doing so good. Seemed rather obvious that someone was trying to make up for her mistakes the week before!!! My mum actually had a word with her about it to and in my opinion i think we were all correct in saying she didnt want to get shown up by a rottweiller and took a tantrum!!!!

[Obelix]

Find an other trainer.These methods for correction and teaching are outdated and unusefull,even capable to ruiin a good young dog.Don't give the trainer a next chance and for the benefitt of your dog:stay away there.

[caramelsmommy]

hi i'm new to this but i read ur post and all i have to say is wow , trainers are suppose to know how each breed and mixed breeds act i mean every day has a temper deep down , i know i've heard rotties have really bad temperments but i think thats just in the ones that have a notion to like small dogs , but your dog was only reacting to something he didn't like and that was his warning to her that he is not wanting her to force him, i took my pupp to petsmart to have her trained and the stuff the trainer was doing i could do at home for the price they charged and she was very loud towards my pup and all she could do was wet the floor and wimper the lady told me i was begin weak and giving her a sence of she could control me later on as she gets older but i simply said sry lady i'm not putting my pup through this and left, but if i was u i wouldn't recommend her to anybody else and if u can report her for harming your pup emotionaly.

[cerulean]

Originally Posted by AmandaAgnew-1987

Funnily enough all the trainer could do the full time was praise him and myself for doing so good. Seemed rather obvious that someone was trying to make up for her mistakes the week before!!! My mum actually had a word with her about it too

Strangely enough, I'll bet that even the best trainers have a bad day and make mistakes too...

[Bosko]

I must agree, while a correction was needed, the trainer waaaaaay overboard! A stern "NO" would have been more than enough. I would be looking for a new trainer asap.

[laurlitt]

The trainer maybe shouldn't have been trying to handle your puppy, but given his normal happy temperment she probably didn't think it would be a problem... Not sure what she did exactly when trying to make him down (maybe it was too rough) but the puppy did respond in a manner that shouldn't have been allowed. The puppy DID deserve a correction for that very WRONG behaviour... However, maybe the puppy was justified by the way the trainer was forcing him.... I don't think the correction was appropriate and it should have come from you (which may have not been possible due to you not having the leash, etc.)...

Another question... Why did you bring your puppy to class that night if he had been sick earlier in the day? Not fair to the puppy or other dogs in the class if he was contagious... That was a potential bad judgement call by the owner.