collars

[debbiej]

I have questions bout collars. I'm learning more about the concept of training tools, and lines are starting to blur. when we do obedience, I'm learning to use prong and reward. for excitement and encouragemenet during the protection part of training, to use a flat collar. yet the e-collar still has a place in our day to day training. I've asked the trainers about ecollars, they aren't against them, just don't want Boris to wear it during training. The comment that made the most sense, is "don't you want him to know the command and correction is coming directly from you?"

Even though we followed the e collar trainers instruction for introducing the collar in a manner that is to avoid being "collar wise", He knows when that collar is on, and his behavior changes-he becomes more "careful". I don't know if this is a good thing or not.

on the long down at training, I've put him out there with and without the ecollar, he does about the same both ways. Yet at home, if I know the neighbors dog is loose, I put his ecollar on because if that dog comes on our property, I can depend on a recall with a "reminder" if need be.

I've asked the guys at training, and they just say whatever works just no e collar during the development of his fun and excitement in the protections part of training.

I do know that it is too hard to manage too many tools at the same time.

[mferg]

I have not used an e-collar on any of my dogs, yet, so take what I say accordingly. But, my understanding is you would want to have the collar on at all times, whether you will be using it or not so the dog does not become collar-wise. Any time the dog is out of the crate/kennel/house, he has the e-collar on: It becomes a part of life.

No, I don't think you'd want to use the e-collar in early phases of protection work. I'd say it'd be good to not put it on until you realize you need it in protection. You may not have to go that route. When you do, start putting it on, along with all the other collars. I've seen dogs with an e-collar, a fur saver, and a prong on the protection field. Each collar had their application and each was available if/when needed. These also tended to be at least intermediate level dogs.

[debbiej]

thanks Marlene. I begin the ecollar training a year or so ago. we started out with him wearing the collar, but not using it for a week or two. often I heard the comment, "so he does not become collar wise". he wore it always unless crated for about 3 months, and during this time our lessons were weekly, and lots of short training sessions each day.

I used it to overcome his inattention to me in certain situations involving other dogs running around, or out of control, and my lack of control caused him to become over excited.

to this day I am sorry I didn't have better understanding or control of my dog. at training, I have watched a trainer have much better control of him. changing his focus with a perfectly timed collar correction, not e collar.

I guess because I know none of the collars I depend on are allowed in a trial, be it obedience, agility or schutzhund, I am trying to look ahead to how to take steps without them.

and the beginning of protection work, I am still clueless, but really trying to learn. the e collar isn't used then.

[Mick Trainer]

Originally Posted by debbiej

I guess because I know none of the collars I depend on are allowed in a trial, be it obedience, agility or schutzhund, I am trying to look ahead to how to take steps without them.

There is no one collar etc that is better or worse with this goal in mind but it is how you use them. People who trial, and want to trial in a slip chain so think they should train in a slip chain have a limited knowledge regards conditioning and the use of any equipment within this process. For me I would very much continue using all the pieces of equipment as needed. I am happy to use many many different pieces of equipment on the same dog to get responces as needed with regards command, loading etc. For example pinch collars more me are almost only used in the laoding of a dog in protection work and I would rather use an e-collar for OB and control work for many reasons including the how early in the learning process I can use such equipment. So it really is horses for courses and use what you feel most comfortable with, what the other handlers can help you with etc the most.

The comment that made the most sense, is "don't you want him to know the command and correction is coming directly from you?" Um in a word, more common than not "NO". There are times when you want the dog to know that the stimulation came from you but there are vaslty more times etc in high level routine execises that you do not. The clearer that the association can me made to the command, breaking of command etc the better and if the dog sees that we have created the stimulus then the association includes us rather than the comand, breaking the command/position only.

Hope that this helps,

Mick.

[debbiej]

it really does, thank you.

[lblax]

youve got good advice from mick but the bottom line is if you want to survive in the club your in you do as others do unless you dont trust there judgemant or you feel there decisions are detrimental to the training of your dog. so it boils down do you trust these people your training with??? they may very well have reasons that are unseen by everyone here as to why boris shouldnt have an e-collar on in the field. if you feel the need to second guess your clubs techniques then move on to a differant club or venue.

[mferg]

Originally Posted by lblax

they may very well have reasons that are unseen by everyone here as to why boris shouldnt have an e-collar on in the field. if you feel the need to second guess your clubs techniques then move on to a differant club or venue.

I think it more important to know exactly what the reasoning they have for their opinions and decisions. A good training director (TD) needs to be able to fully explain why they feel the dog needs to have or not have a particular piece of equipment. It is fundamental that a handler understand what is being used and why. The handler may well know the proclivities of the dog better than the TD and have a good feeling how a dog will react. Also, it brings a better base of knowledge for the handler about different training techniques.

[debbiej]

thanks again. At first Jim had suggested Boris not even wear the collar to training. After a while, I asked him about the ecollar for obedience. He said that was up to me, but he shouldn't have it on for the work with the helper, and explained why and I agree. I personally feel more comfortable working him off lead in obedience with it on. The idea of him breaking a sit or down to go after another dog is always in the back of my mind. I have to say, he has not done this, and I have not used a stim during our obedience work. I often think the ecollar is more for my nerves than his.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by debbiej

The idea of him breaking a sit or down to go after another dog is always in the back of my mind..

dont worry so much about it if it happens it happens. and it does happen the traioning will go much easier if you dont worry

[Mick Trainer]

but he shouldn't have it on for the work with the helper, and explained why and I agree. And what was his reasoning?

Mick.

[debbiej]

Mick, he feels that boris knows when he has the collar on. and I agree from behavior I have seen. he wants no intimidation, I guess would be the word. no hinderance, no hesatancy in the excitement.

maybe I've done the e collar training wrong, but his behavior is different when he is wearing the collar. here is an example. If boris and my other dog will glimpse each other out of the window they usually start barking at each other. if boris does not have his collar on, he gets really wound up. If he does have it on, he goes into another room, avoiding the stimulis of the other dog "picking a fight".

[debbiej]

I guess Larry, I do need to quit worring about it, perhaps he would get a boot in the head and it would be good for him. perhaps nothing would happen. and most likely, he won't break the down or stay. he hasn't yet...

[Mick Trainer]

he feels that boris knows when he has the collar on. and I agree from behavior I have seen. he wants no intimidation, I guess would be the word. no hinderance, no hesatancy in the excitement. Sound reasoning indeed.

Mick.

[chevy boy]

I have some concerns on a gental leader collar. Chevy is 13 weeks now and is in Puppy school. Last week I was told chevy is to mouthy. The trainner suggested a gental leader collar. I have been told that the gental leader causes damage to the eye ducks, also that is does damage to the facial tissue. Others are telling me to use a prong collar. any advice?

[Mick Trainer]

I wouldn't use either at this age but wait until around 20 weeks of age for a GL (I much prefer the Halti brand rather than the GL as it releases much better and fits the face better) and would probably wait longer for the prong but it would depend on the dog. I wouldn't use either for a pup that is mouthy (I'd fix it another way, when is the pup mouthy?) and what people have been telling you regards the GL is rubbish and I recommend you ignore it and probabaly anything else these people say as they are probably close minded and miss a lot of knowledge etc because of this.

Mick.