Group Obedience Classes Bad?

[ROTTSNBOXERS]

I SAW A ???????? VIDEO CATALOG, AND THEY SAY THAT GROUP PUPPY OBEDIENCE CLASSES ARE TERRIBLE FOR PUPS, THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY DISTRACTIONS FOR THEM IN THE BEGINNING.
I THOUGHT IT WAS GOOD TO HAVE DISTRACTIONS WHEN TRAINING YOUR DOG......................THERE ARE DISTRACTIONS IN THE REAL WORLD RIGHT?


TX:(

[Burnsway]

???????? does not say puppy classes are terrible... Or at least thats not the way I took it. What he did say is train, socialize and again train your puppies then go to a class and test just how trained they are. I took his tapes and advice on his webpage as a don't expect classes to train your dog but you train your dog then go to classes to fix the areas you may fall short on.

???????? is kinda harsh, tough, and quick tempered and I think sometimes people missread what he is trying to say. When I read his stuff and watch it I just roll my eyes at the "ATTITUDE" and listen to what he has to say because in short he "DOES" have good things to say!

And yes they will have disstractions in real life that is why you socialize and train.

[Judi W]

Oh you guys, you knew I'd show up on this thread! We don't ask the dogs to be already trained in order to go to doggy school, that is silly. They are there to learn and to be trained! You have an instructor to be your coach and give you hints and you have a group of great supportive people all wishing each other well. AND, you have a weekly date with your dog so you are forced to get up off that chair and get out with your best friend. The dogs love going to school.

Remember, that someone who earns their living giving pricy private lessons is going to be a strong believer in private instruction and opposed to group and club classes. Now, I believe that if someone is having real difficulties, they can benefit from some private lessons as an adjunct to classes but not instead of. We have too many examples of dogs who only had private training and then act simply awful in the presence of other dogs. Well, why not? they think they are "onlies" and that has been fostered by keeping them isolated from others of their own species.

[Burnsway]

OH JUDY I AGREE!!!

Don't get me wrong. It's just that many people missread ????????, he is not against Puppy classes. Atleast thats not how I read him. He just doesn't want people to think that puppy classes will be the end of it.

I have read lots of his stuff and although I think he can be a complete***. I do believe he has good stuff to say. That was the only point I was trying to make....:D

[WorkinDogz]

It's hard to misread Ed Frawley.

Puppy Kindergarten is for socialization, dog-on-dog learning and to lay a foundation in a positive manner during the most impressionable time in a dogs' life.

Very few dogs NEED private obedience classes. Extreme dog aggression, extremely shy and/or fearful dogs, dogs whos handler cannot safely handle the dog in a class......these are examples of dogs who would benefit from a few private lessons...but IMHO; a dog, who can execute their commands in a class situation will be more apt to do the same in ANY situation.

???????? provides "one" way of doing things; and quite honestly; I choose VERY few of "his" ::cough:: methods in ANY of the three phases of Schutzhund.

Modern day Koehler IMHO.

[Burnsway]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz
Modern day Koehler IMHO.

Yes I see him that way too on a lot of what he says, could never argue that...:D, But other than 1 single article where he did say puppy classes were not necessary but a good testing ground I have never heard or read him saying he thought they were terrible.

Although he is rough, a little harsh, and I dissagree with a lot of what he says he is no novice and knows the "DOG" very well. And he can be learned from.

ROTTNBOXER,

Puppy classes are great and You would enjoy them and learn from them....You are proper in questioning what you read!

[luvarott]

Actually Frawley is VERY correct in not recommending group obedience classes for teaching basic commands. BUT, and a very BIG BUT, that is because most of his obedience training is based on compulsion/corrections. A young animal that has no clue what it is doing and is being wildly distracted by other dogs is going to get far more corrections than it would if it was just learning these commands in a relatively distraction free setting. Not a good start to great attitude!!
I would not take my young dog into these kinds of classes anyway and would much prefer that if you are going to do a group setting class as a first experience that you are going to a positives based school OR that you have done a bit of preliminary work at home first. If this is a first dog and you haven't a clue how to begin, then I do think it is best to either start off in a puppyK, lure-bait socializing type class OR take a few privates first.

[poohbearsmom]

Call me silly, and slap me sideways, but I take my dogs to group obedience classes first and foremost for the socialization and distraction. Secondly, to assist me in handling and finessing MY training procedures - so that I can go home and practice in a more efficient manner - IMHO, the more that I can subject my dogs to - i.e. dogs, people, situations, places, blah blah blah, the less concerned they are about those dogs, people, situations, places, blah blah blah, and the more apt they are to listen to me when those distractions are around...... at least that is my goal.
Just my 1 cent worth there.. have a nice day . elisabeth

[luvarott]

Elisabeth:
What obedience titles do you have on your dogs?
Frawley is NOT training pets, he is training people so that they can achieve well in competitive dog sports. Whole different ballgame and one where attitude is paramount.
If I want to learn a new skill, one that requires intense concentration on my part, because it is difficult (just as beginning obedience manouvers are difficult for our dogs to ace), then I do NOT want to have the TV blaring/radio on/noise and confusion around me. I want to be able to concentrate! Once that skill is learned, then perhaps distractions can be added, but not TOO much at once. That is how to raise confidence in an animal. You simply will NOT find any top obedience competitors who start their pups out in group situations....it is unfair to the dog. The only reason for groups is for socialization and for beginning teaching attention......The average pet owner is going to have to go to a group with his first dog, because that is where he will learn ......so do not misinterpret me on that one!

[poohbearsmom]

luvarott -
i am currently training my girl for the BH, - perhaps i should have gone into detail further.
i wholeheartedly believe that training should be initialized at home, without distractions, as the animal can concentrate on the lesson at hand. i keep training sessions short and fun, and reward based.
i do, however, believe that after a dog has caught on to my training without distractions, that distractions should be introduced gradually.
i also believe that in order to learn how to handle an animal, classes are needed, as a good instructor can see my body language, timing, etc...
i believe that group classes are an excellent socialization and desensitization tool - i use them to socialize my dogs, and for me to be trained, so that i can utilize that training at home, and reinforce my abilities in handling my animal.
training is an ongoing thing for me. the more i can be critiqued, the easier i can make the process for my dogs, thus making life more enjoyable for both species.
so, to reiterate my last post, i utilize group class to FINESSE my handling and training skills, and for socialization and distractions for my dogs - i do not depend on these classes to train my dog - they are to train ME to train my dog.
have a nice day again - elisabeth

[RottnKid1]

Most people just want a well behaved family pet. For that purpose, group classes with an excellent instructor are wonderful. It helps with a dog's socialization in a controlled environment while the owner learns how to train their dog. There is no such thing as obedience without an owner who has some knowledge of how to train.

[spiritkdb]

One of the great things I get out of group classes is watching how the people interact with their dog and what they do that causes the dog to get or not get the command. The finesse of it! So I enjoy them greatly though I am just a lowly family pet owner. As a matter of fact i went in today for a private session on heeling so the trainer could watch how my dog and I interact together. Hard for her to be as attentive when the whole gang is there. And it was great! My furkid needs to be pumped up on her heeling. Happy and attentive. I am a very quiet person, the trainer pointed this out. So I have some new "tools" now to work with at home and also in class. (Now if I can only go to a competition with an empty soda bottle in hand to help pump up the pup!) Though seriously, I don't plan to compete but I sure like the learning environment of group, AND I can say the same for private.

Puppy socialization in classes is a whole nother ball of earwax (another topic on this site today). I learned a lot about how dogs interact with each other and how us humans (most) know so little about doggy language.

Any one know a dog named Jeneck Sam? Schutzhund training.

[WorkinDogz]

Well....having competed at some pretty high levels of competition; I can say that even us SchH competitors are only "one-of" in a club. There are plenty of other dogs and handlers there.....at any given training session.

As was stated earlier....your dog doesn't "learn" anything at class (be it group OR private) they learn OFF THE FIELD; at home...and you're merely transferring what you condition them to do at home; to the field (or group).

You can easily pick out the dogs that haven't been subjected to and worked their obedience around a whole bunch of other dogs at any trial where the BH is happening.

Those dogs are very "concerned" about the other dogs.....whereas the dogs that train and are expected to execute any command; given by their handler at any time; regardless of what is going on around them........carry more of an "another day at training" attitude.

Classes are for teaching the HANDLER how to train their dog and correct errors in technique...and then apply it appropriately. They are a very necessary part of a well-rounded dogs "been there; done that.....not a big deal".

[RottManK9]

My opinion is some distractions are good in the beginging....SOME. However each pup has it's own level and the distractions should be matched to the pup. Not too many at first, but as time and training goes on and the dog progresses, distractions should be more often and harder to resist. In the long run, when done right you will have a well trained and very tollerant dog. Each owner/handler needs to watch the dog being trained and adjust the distractions to benifit the dog's progression. :)
If your pup is too easily distracted and you feel the class isn't being productive, see about getting the trainer to do some one on one training with you.

[Judi W]

Well, I wasn't slapped silly, but I was struck speechless! (my friends would be amazed) I've been taking my dogs to dog classes for 30 years, every dog has obtained working titles, (yes, advanced also) and quite serendipitously I've also have several end up in the Top 10. Amazingly we have some very nationally competitive club members whose dogs never miss classes from KPTon.

Yes, the quiet concentrated training takes place during at-home training. That is why you will always hear your instructor say to be sure to train at home. Classes are for the "how-to" and to accustom the dog to other dogs and people as a normal part of the world and to have someone else give your team a look over. They are also the best place to get ring experience on a regular basis. Been doing this for a while, why would I need the "how-to" part? Because I am always learning something new. I always benefit from someone giving me an outside glance (hey Judi, did you know you were doing xxxx with your hand?) I'd rather get an eyeball or good hint after a week than waiting for 6 months to find out I've developed a tick or an eccentricity.