another fear agression topic-need advice

[LORHEL]

This will be my last post about Zeke, our one year old male, whom I have written about several times. This is also regarding fear.
I had an incident while at the vet yesterday.
I don't know how much of this is going to actually be Zeke's fault, but I will explain.
At this point, I don't know how much Zeke is hurting mentally from everything, but my husband and I simply are not able to do this anymore, unless we know Zeke can live a somewhat quality life in the end.

I took Zeke to the vet for a rash yesterday.
I know he was not excited about going for a ride, as he seemed to know it wasn't the normal thing. But we got to the vet, and sat in the corner, on the "dog" side.
Everything was normal, he was laying down, as one lady put it "pouting" but at least he was calm. I had the gentle leader on him as well as his muzzle. After waiting about 10 minutes, this dog, some type of a husky/wolf looking type (sorry, I am not good at dog types) came in. He and Zeke both got upset at seeing each other, and for a minute, the dog went back into the waiting room and was gone. The next thing I knew here he comes right at Zeke, walking, WITH NO LEASH ON
I could not believe this was happening, and I looked around for the owner, and she slowly came over after realizing that this was not going to be a good situation. I told her, he is not dog friendly and SHE NEEDED TO GET HER DOG OUT OF THE WAY. I stood between Zeke and the other dog. She finally got a damn leash out and the vet lady helped her. I told them can you please get me to a damn waiting room, away from this dog. We went into an empty exam room, and Zeke was so upset, huffing and full of anxiety. Several minutes passed, and the assistant (female)came in and attempted to take his temperature, but couldn't do it, as after giving him several treats out of her hand, after that was over, he growled and wanted to attack her.

I told her we would have to just wait for the vet at this point. When the vet opened the door to come in Zeke instantly went into an attack mode, and barked non-stop. I had to take him out the back door and into the Jeep. He barked non stop at the vet, wouldn't even think about getting a treat or anything from him.

I am so afraid that there is something mentally wrong with Zeke that no amount of socialization we can give him is going to help. The only hope I would have is if there is some medication he can have to calm him down. I know this is a fear, anxiety thing.

He is totally fine at home,and around a close circle of friends.

But we took him to a park or something similar every day from the fourth of July until Sunday the 15th. He did well, but the thing is, no one can touch him. There is something about his head that when you get near him if he does not know you, he will attack, or feel the need to. If we had not had the muzzle on him, there are two of my husbands softball teammmates, he would have bitten. They tried to be friendly after a game last week, and Zeke was around my mother in law, and other family members all at the same time, as several other new people. I am prepared to put him down, if he cannot live a quality life. He hates his muzzle, and is miserable every time it is on him. He has gotten somewhat used to the gentle leader.

The vet gave me some sedatives/tranquilizers to give him so he could look at him if the rash did not get better with the medicine, which I think it will. But it will have to be this way every time from now on.

My husband and I have dedicated the last year of our lives to this dog, and money is not the issue with him, nor is our love for him. But at this point we have to do what is right for Zeke, and if he cannot heal, from whatever is killing him inside, we must let him go.

Any feedback would be appreciated, as we are prepared to do this in the next day or so.
I have a call in to the behavioralist who saw him last Saturday, the 7th. She had told us he was not vicious, and that we had good control of him, but we don't have control when he gets it in his mind, that certain people will hurt him.

Please know, there is no way we have ever hurt him ourselves, physically, or anyone else.

This is the hardest thing I will ever have to do, and I will be so empty, but I cannot let him hurt anymore if this is how it is going to be.

:( Lori

[WorkinDogz]

LORHEL,

You sound very much like a person at their wits end. :(

Since the idea of euthanizing Zeke is mentioned; then it's time to really lay it on the line and speak frankly. Ya ready? ;)

I know how hard you've worked with Zeke and I know how frustrated you are...but; with all of your efforts HAVE YOU TAKEN HIM TO A PROFESSIONAL TRAINER?? I know you've talked about doing it; but have you ACTUALLY done it???

The average pet owner does not (and should not be expected to!) have the skills to solve the problems of a dog that exceedes their abilities and experience! No more than we should know the dynamics of being an auto mechanic simply because we own a car!

YES; you've worked hard..and YES Zeke has given you more than your share of disappointments and struggles.....but YOU CANNOT DO THIS ALONE and WITHOUT the help of a PROFESSIONAL.

That takes a REAL commitment and a lot of cash. Make no mistake about it. IF you can't, for whatever reason, get this dog to a pro....then my suggestion to you would be to either turn him over to a professional and have them decide if the dog is salvagable; or euthanize him.

You can't just "adopt" him out. That would be unfair, irresponsible and down right dangerous. This dog needs to either be trained with intensity by you and a under the guidance of a pro; turned over to a pro for evaluation/training/disposition or euthanized.

This is my opinion only; but you're not getting ANYWHERE with him at this point.

The time for procrastination and "waiting him out" has long since passed. Let's get to work for the good of Zeke...whatever that decision is.

I'm NOT intending this as a slam; and I sure hope you don't take it that way....but you're talking PTS..so I'm talking "no holds barred".

As always....ALL THE BEST. :)

[LORHEL]

Thank you so much for replying working dogz. I respect your opinion. No, I didn't take any offence. At this point, yes, on July 7, my husband and I spent two hours with a behavioralist/trainer at the local vet hospital. He did very well, the only incident we had was when she and her assistant first came in, and she shook our hands, he was somewhat protective, but by the end of the two hours, he was licking her feet, and out in the reception area, a lady and her daughter went by when he was on the scales, and actually petted him as they walked by (he had muzzle on etc.). This is something that he had no time to react to and was quite surprised. I do know Zeke is good with kids, as we had him up at our lake Saturday and when one of our female cousins had had enough of her 4 year old touching zeke in the face, and roughhousing him, she bent down to spank him (he is a really out of control kid as it is--long story) Zeke got so upset, he tried jumping on her to defend the little boy. So he is very tolerant of children, but fearful of certain people. This person we went to see evaluated us, and said we had excellent control of him, which was a big issue with her and whether or not we would be able to help him. We do have a college down south in our state that we could have taken him to later in August, but she did not feel that was necessary after seeing him. She said it is part genetics (his mom and dad are kennel dogs, but his mom does very well around people for as little as socialization as she has had and the dad is also somewhat social although he has not had the chance to be out with people like he should.
The trainer told us that even though this other person out at our local kennel club told us to put him down, (I spoke to this lady in between classes, that she taught, and she had her own rott there,)that this person does NOT make decisions out there, and that was b.s. that she would even say that without looking at the dog.

They did not feel on Saturday that he was not capable of recovering from this, and did not consider him vicious, which was our biggest concern.

Due to the attempted bite incident back in April--At my softball practice, a cousin and I were walking up towards him and she asked if he could pet her. I told her ok. My husband had him (pinch collar at that time and leash) and was very apprehensive about someone petting him. She let him sniff her hand, and he started licking her, and was fine until she turned her hand over to pet him and then he snapped. Luckily my husband was watching him like he does, and pulled him back so all he did was break the skin on her finger, but it could have been so much worse.

The behavior lady said she and her assistant were going to make some calls and he WOULD be getting back into a class in August.

I am waiting on a call from her also, to see what she thinks about these latest incidents.

Hope this shows a bigger picture for you to maybe add some comments.

Thank you! :)

[codglvr]

Lorhel, workingDogz reply was very good. Our boy goes to the vet on tranq's. We will never be able to trust him even 95% for his safety! We see one of the best trainers/behaviorists in the state and still feel as you are now, that at times we wonder about euthansia. With almost 18 months behind us from when we picked up our boy, he still does not allow strangers to pet him on the head, nor do we ever allow it. In fact we only allow strangers to throw treats to him until he initiates positive interaction. The other thing is his skittish moments go from one day to the next. You need to become an expert at his warning signs. I spend hours just watching Balder interact with everything. I also spend time watching other dogs, even the slightest movements will help you better understand them, and allow you work with Zeke. I am sorry you are going through this, and I wish you were here, I would send you to my "godsend". Remember many times the words of wisdom from professionals cuts right to the bone, but listen to them, and do as they instruct, we have come a long way, with a long way to go. Even our vet told us we may have to put Balder down, but if you look in Chit Chat, you'll see the milestone we just met :D One long hard day at a time.

[Mojave's Mom]

Originally posted by codglvr:
<STRONG> Remember many times the words of wisdom from professionals cuts right to the bone, but listen to them, and do as they instruct, we have come a long way, with a long way to go.... One long hard day at a time.</STRONG>

I couldn't agree more.

[LORHEL]

Thank you so much for your replies. It does sound all too familiar. Do you feel then with Zeke that as long as we know his "stressors" or negative stimuli, and can control that, that he can live a somewhat quality life with us? I just don't want him to be miserable or make his situation worse.
He loves us so much and is so good most of the time, that I cannot bear the thought of PTS. I could see he was just plain nasty and we couldn't control him etc. but we know what triggers this, strangers, too quick, or in his face, and he may never be tolerant of other dogs. I can live with that, as he is not around other dogs, and the only problem is when they approach him like yesterday. I am going straight to your milestone post and hope to learn more. I just cannot give up on my best friend.

Thank you all so much, you have been there and this means the world to me to have people who can offer anything, as we know nothing when it comes to this.

:) Lori

[codglvr]

Lorhel, I just PMed you, you're getting the hang of it now.

[LORHEL]

Michelle: I PM'ed you back. :) Lori

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

You got a lot of really good advice here,
all I can add is that I have a fear aggressive Rottie-Lab, Buddy, who requires constant surveillance. He has improved a tremendous amount since I took him to a trainer, but he still has that tendency to react.
I have to CONSTANTLY be on guard.
I am totally and completely in love with Buddy and will never give him up.
But it is a marginalized existence. I see Soapie and Miller, my other two dogs, get pets and love from strangers, and cannot trust Buddy to get the same. I don't know if it will ever change.

As for the vet? Buddy gets muzzled from the moment the vet appears until the moment she leaves.

[LORHEL]

Thank you all again for the encouraging words. I have decided to stick with this situation, as we love our boy too much and would only put him down if he were not capable of being helped. I did get a call from the behavioralist who saw him last weekend, and she is actually good friends with our personal vet, and is going to call him and explain her role in helping Zeke and that she would like for them to see him on a non visit situation basis and make him feel more comfortable, even have the vet come out to the waiting room rather than in the exam room to visit him and give treats etc.

I feel alot better knowing there are others who are coping in this type of situation, and the restrictions I can live with.

Thanks again --we will give you an update further down the line.
:)

[codglvr]

LORHEL, I forgot to add one thing to my PM, if you can't get into classes for a couple of weeks, try to get in for some private sessions. The more you work Zeke, the better he will be. ;)

[LORHEL]

Thanks! I did get to talk to his behavioralist, and she is talking to our vet, and I am going to take him back there, several times a week just to "visit" and get treats. I want to make it as positive of an experience as I can, and these people are just great in that they want to help him also.

[Judi W]

How many actual working sessions has your behaviorist had with Zeke? Have her sessions led to enough progress that you can measure and has she needed to adjust as you go along? Also, to be fair, remember that what works to lessen stress on one occasion might not be the recipe for others. Continually reading is necessary so it would be good if she also accompanied you especially on your first "visit".

[LORHEL]

So far one. We are going to set up another in a few weeks. She is working on finding us someone who WILL let him in on their next class session in August. This will be very interesting, and I am kind of worried.
How much of Zekes' puppy class from October would you guess he might remember? I
am so afraid he is going to be anxious after that idiot who put him in the hold upset him, and I just don't want to start off somewhere else on the wrong foot.

It will be interesting to see how he acts with other dogs there. When he was a puppy, he was with three others, and he acted tough, but the other three would approach him and he was all talk and no walk. He would try to dominate sometimes, by the humping method, or other times, act as a go between, as there was a lab puppy who was pretty rowdy and would get on top of another lab puppy. It should be interesting, but he really needs to get back into this asap.
Hopefully, I will have good news soon that he is going to get in one of these.

[WorkinDogz]

How much does he remember?? Hopefully ALL OF IT; considering that you should have been working with him EVERY SINGLE DAY since he graduated in October!

Training, practicing and conditioning does not end with graduation night. It's a life-long thing.

IMHO you really need to forget any negative experiences you may have had in the past.....your dog has much greater issues than one poorly timed or incorrect correction created.