Fear agression correction

[Andy's Mom]

Our trainer (about whom I am a little suspect as she has given me differing advice) had indicated that Andy may now be "fear" agressive versus "dog" agressive, which was the original diagnosis.

I have read, in books NOT specifically about rottweilers, that for fear agression you should not correct for the agressive behavior but praise/give treats/distract prior to seeing another dog. I honestly don't think anything would distract Andy when he gets his sights set on another dog when we're out walking, but I'm now confused by the information I'm getting.

The thing that's most confusing is that he does not seem to be getting better with our desensiting, mostly because I think we basically "get ready" for him to go off. We tighten up the leash, talk to him with a deep voice and say "leave it" and "no", etc. in order to avoid him going off. He very seldom - maybe one out of six encounters - will not go off.

My question is, if he is fear agressive and our correction for that fear is doing the opposite, and distraction is not a possibility, what do we do?

And if he's still dog agressive, trying to distract him with treats and the like will be reinforcing the behavior, won't it?

I see the trainer on Wednesday, but I'd like your opinions prior to then so I have some ideas to bounce off of her.

Thanks.

[Soapie&Buddy'sMom]

My Buddy is fear aggressive (not just dogs, but strangers too) and my trainer told me to say "It's okay" in a soothing FIRM voice whenever encountering a new things. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Buddy has gotten a LOT better since I started doing this (I used to scream "NO" and pull his collar :( ) and at the most now does one lunge and then stops. If he does do more than one lunge I will say "It's okay" again and then put him in a "sit" until he calms down. He still has a long way to go, though, which is my fault, I haven't done the socializing I need to do with him.

I hope others will answer this too because it is a tough problem to deal with.

[SelkeysCompanion]

Well....all I can tell you is what expearience I have with my own,Selket,female 1 year&½ now.She IS dog agressive,based on fear(of dogs),not fear aggression.When she was FRIGHTENED of something new or something that startled her she did not show aggression(growel at it),she did not try to run from it(fear).So she is not'FEARFULL',NOW if something startles her,she stops,looks,then it's over.I worked with her on this when she was young,she would FREEZE UP alot out on walks if she saw something she didn't understand.An"FEAR"aggressive dog CAN'T handle these situations and must fight back!
Now"DOG"agression is FEAR of dogs,This is what Selket is displaying.I've realized that it has been mostly MY fault,I missed the signs.She has been to classes with other dogs,acted fine and she has been to the dog park,had good dog manners and played nicely BUTDIDN'T want to play with females,just avoided them.Also she didn't like to be sniffed and would go away from that dog.Then she did not allow it,if a dog went for her back end she would spin around and rais her flew,AGRESSION!She barks at the dog down stairs&this dogs runs away-every time she was ALOWED to do this herDOG AGRESSIONwas REWARDED!I have been back to classes and she is an ANGEL there,what did you expect?My problem is on the street.For barking at the dog downstairs,my daughter tried the SPRAY BOTTLE thingLOL, Selket attacked the bottle(re-directed agression),which proved to me she is too focused on the other dog to distract and dangerous to go near another dog(loose leash-yikes!)DISTANCE until it's under control,Please DON'T PUT HIM IN A SITUATION HE CAN'T HANDLE yet.Giving him treats&PRAISE and KEEPING his ATTENTION with commands while a dog goes by IS NOT REWARDING the bad behaviour,because his attention is on you.Selket is not allowed out when the dog downstairs is!I am still working with Selket on this and she is getting much better,yesterday at the park a small dog walking on the otherside of the fence lunged to the end of his leash&barked at Selket,he was about 10 feet away,Selket was sitting,I saw her hackles go up so I smooth them down,step infront of her"down","sit","good","down","stay","good Selkey",kneel beside her and give her a pat.I STOPED IT before it started.She was offleash!My GOAL is no reaction at all,this will take time.If I put it in(dog agression),I'll take it out! Sorry so long,hope this helps nobody want's an agressive dog,good luck!

[RottnKid1]

I've never seen a dog who's fearful of other dogs lunge at them straight on unless feeling cornered. Normally, a dog with this problem will sneak up from behind.

[Tenaj]

My friends' fear agressive GSD will try to attack before the other dog will. She will lunge on the leash and snarl, growl, the whole nine yards. She will do the same behind the fence. Now if the matter is pressed and the other dog gets closer, she will back away for a minute and if the offending dog steps closer she lunges at it ready to ward off any 'attack' she thinks is about to occur. Not all fearful dogs sneak attack. Especially when they just may feel trapped-hence the term 'fear biting'.

[Vicki]

You may want to build up some positive experiences, to reduce the tension. When I have a dog who's unsure of other dogs, I take put him in the car and go to areas with few dogs and people. You can build from there. I ask friends to come walk with me, and if the dog starts to tense I curve away and leave it for another time. When the dog is comfortable, move up from there, going slowly. It takes time, but if it is fear based this gives the dog a chance to build his confidence, and become confortable with approaching other dogs. Turid Rugaas has a wonderful video about Calming Signals, which is a great resource.

[ July 17, 2001: Message edited by: Vicki Magnus ]

[SelkeysCompanion]

Originally posted by Andy's Mom:
<STRONG>This is why I am confused as to whether he is now dog agressive or fear agresssive because he was always so confident before - the biggest, toughest guy on the block.
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This leads me to believe that maybe he's afraid of the other dog because of the reaction of the pinch/choke collars.
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He's a sensitive boy, really, and I'm afraid we may be putting fear in him with all this choke and pinch collar business so much so that he's afraid of every dog he sees.
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BTW, he's great when we walk with the trainer. What's up with that?

HELP.</STRONG>

I think he learned this behavior here(dog park).Did the other dog's back away from him?If so this gave him a false sence of security,he thinks he will never have to fight so he "bluffs"with the other dogs and every time he 'wins'he learns to be more fierce.
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The collars don't add agression unless you pull.
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"he's afraid of every dog he sees"because he thinks there will be a fight,he has to keep his reputation as "the toughest guy on the block"(bully).Correcting this with a pinch/choke made it much worse with Selket,if you'pull'it adds agression,even a'hard snap'with the pinch was inafective.You can use these to correct but not when he sees another dog. Keep a distance & GET HIS ATTENTION,you'll have to use positive things here,once he gets going(ears forward,standing up straight,stepping in direction of target,hackles raising,snarl...lunge)it's too late.Get it before it starts.
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Selkey&I have been back to class about this and the TD had his Dobie with him,he had his Dobie walk right past Selkey.No reaction from Selkey but clearly she was apprehensive.She wouldn't dare pull that rutine in front of him. :D The dogs just know better. ;)

[Andy's Mom]

SelkeysCompanion:

Your reply was a great help. It helped me see why we need to get off the path, avoid the situation before it begins. I need to instill this into my husband now. But I see exactly what you're saying and I will follow the advice.

Thank you.

[spiritkdb]

Selkey's companion makes some very good points. I have been in class with other dogs that are fearful and also aggressive of other dogs. My girl is very friendly so I have not encountered this problem personally. What I have seen work is like Selkey's C. says, redirect the dogs attention before the situation escalates. Bigger treat, better treat etc. Have some really terrific treats that Andy really loves and as soon as you are near another dog get him focused on you and away from the other dog. Reward the good behavior with praise and lots of treats. Have him sit, heel whatever as long as he is focused on you. He will start associating the rewards with the good behavior near other dogs.

Dogs interact differently off leash as you have seen from Andy's off leash experience. You are 100% correct when you say he senses the change in you. Your body language etc tell him there is something to be tense about. Remember try to encourage the good behavior first, by changing the focus. Another suggestion would be a gentle leader (I love them) as it greatly helps in redirecting thier attention. They can't pull against it and you can gently turn his head towards you and away from the object of excitement. Good luck, sounds like you are committed to the right way of working this out and you recieved some good advice here!

[luvarott]

Little suggestion here....don't EVER tell your dog "it's OK" or "smooth hackles down" ie.pat the dog, when the dog is acting inappropriately. The dog will understand this as being praise for what he has done.
If your dog is lunging at other dogs while he is on leash then this is a training issue, no matter what the cause of it is, whether rude dog OR fearful dog. What the dog needs to learn to do is walk on a loose leash no matter what the distraction is. This is highly trainable behavior.
Yes, the dog senses your apprehension and alerts to that, but your apprehension is there because the dog WILL go off. And the more you use aversive corrections around other dogs, the more your dog will begin to associate those corrections with the presence of other dogs. Kind of a downward spiral right??
I strongly encourage you to use a Gentle Leader on the dog. And also to keep him at a comfortable for him distance away from other dogs. Thru positive reinforcement of good behavior you will gradually be able to reduce that distance.