Does positive reinforcement ONLY training work???

[Carol Burke]

Originally Posted by Rottlva

While I do agree with this, I disagree at the same time. As trainers it is our responsibility to make the commands we give crystal clear and to proof them in all environments. All too often I see someone offer a command that the dog has learned at home, but hasn't learned around other dogs, on different footing, whatever. Realizing that sit means sit weather it is from a down, from a stand, from a distance, whatever takes training to a different level.

I mention this because before I correct my dog, I look long good and hard at how I trained an exercise, and why the dog may not be doing what I've asked. Yes, the dog may just be blowing you off, but often the lines of communication were broken along the way, and there was a miscommunication. In this instance, correcting the dog adds to the stress, ends up confusing, and in some dogs, cascades the behavior.

Working at utility with my eldest rottie, I chose to use NRM's (Non reward markers) "oops" was ours. I really feel at that level, if a dog is not listening, he is either a confused, you are not making the work enjoyable, or you never taught the exercise completely.

I hope I've been clear. Again, yes, I feel there is a place for corrections. But ask yourself, have I truly taught my dog what I am asking him to do, and what can I do to make him succeed?

I agree completely with what you are saying, I guess I did not go far enough with my post. I have a dog who I trained through utility, he did great on the CDX work taking placements, etc. When we got into utility he did fairly well the first few times he was shown, not qualifying, but trying, he then decided he hated this and wasn't doing it. He would be excited ringside but once in the ring he acted like he had never learned any of this. Obviously he had a problem and not something that a correction would solve. I finally retired him, he just didn't like it and this was a dog who always did whatever I asked I truly believe it was an age thing and he needed to retire.

[debbiej]

I've really enjoyed reading this, very informative and helpful thread.

Although not experienced as most of you in training, I feel Boris was very much the like this new boy.

I figure training a dog is a lot like driving a car. you have the road you need to stay on, your steering wheel and brake. purely positive with a dog like Boris is kind of like trying to steer by bouncing off the trees. you get to the destination a lot faster if you make steering corrections to the left or right, and apply the brakes when needed.

I think a dog who is a young adult, lacking the gradual shaping that being trained from puppyhood, will learn a lot faster and feel more confidence if he gets clear messages not only about what you want from him, but about what you don't want from him.

[fostermom]

Originally Posted by Rottlva

You mentioned this boy is being labled as "reactive". It is often the smartest, quickest dogs that are labled as "reactive". They lack impulse control, are super sensitve to stimuli, and in the right hands can become fantastic competitors, but they are alot of work! !

Yup, very, very bright!! As I mentioned, what the trainer is accomplishing with clicker training is amazing....three sessions and my foster is targeting the trainer's hand, following him in a lovely loose leash heel, moving front, right, left....leash was so loose the foster was tripping over it...really didn't need it. The trainer has said REPEATEDLY that this dog is SMART and would make a phenomenal rally dog. But all that being said, I'm rather over my head with this boy.
For example, the trainer played with the tug...said it teaches the dog an "off" switch, and the foster loved it, started play growling and then quickly escalated to an excited growl/bark...clearly going over the top. Tug was removed and foster grabbed at trainer's hand in excitement...no biting, no pressure, but did grab. I have a feeling it's REALLY important to do things right with this dog so am trying very hard to comply with the trainer's recommendations and many of them work well; he said to hold treat tightly in hand and not let dog have it until he made eye contact...did that a half dozen times and now the foster will touch my hand with his nose and then look right at me...such a smart boy that I can't figure out why he's not figuring out the jumping thing...after I yelled at the dog, he ran into the kitchen and peered around the corner at me. I then walked over to him, offered my hand which he touched, I treated, then did a couple sits which I rewarded for....wanted to end it on a positive note.
Trainer said to look at ceiling with arms folded and ignore dog when he jumped...but it's not working.....any other suggestions? And how do you teach "auto watch"?
I will also say this is the same dog who is NOT reading my dogs' signals and bulldozes right into hard play regardless of whether the other dogs want to play or not...I've watched my dogs gradually escalate the body language until now my alpha female mounts and pulls him over, growling the entire time, and then my alpha male sits on him!!! With that level of "communication" he does finally seem to be getting it....another reason I'm thinking that the more subtle "ignore bad behaviors" just isn't sinking in.

[Baxter's Mom]

Trainer said to look at ceiling with arms folded and ignore dog when he jumped...but it's not working.....any other suggestions? And how do you teach "auto watch"?

Any physical touch when a dog jumping up on you is rewarding... What I do, is firmly say " NO" , take a step forward, and then say " SIT". I will then praise/pet dog when the dog is sitting quietly in front of me... Jumping up is disrespectful and way for the dog to get attention when he wants it. I always encourage the dog to have manners for pettings and enforce it by pettings when at a sit and not when he's jumping up or trying to jump up.

[LynnS]

This is my favorite topic as I knew nada about dog training when I got Bella. The first few obedience classes we went to (until she was about a year old) were 100% positive. That worked wonderfully for teaching behaviors as others have already said but fell apart in proofing (in hindsite maybe partially due to her age) because Bella is definately reactive (in that she is very easily stimulated and goes into overdrive often). I had a ton of learning to do. I really think every dog is a bit different and you have to feel your way through what works and what doesn't. My number one rule is that I really try to be fair to my dog. If I could do it differently with Bella, I would have learned to teach her to channel her drive. Although after meeting a certain young female Rottweiler I am rethinking this a bit as some have a natural on and off switch. OK enough rambling LOL

[buddysdad]

i think its wrong to ignore bad behaviour, the dog will not no that its doing anything wrong if u dont tell it.It may still do the bad behaviour aswell as doing the rewarding behaviour otherwise.