E-collars

[GypsysMom]

Has anyone used these or known anyone? I was thinking of buying one for Chopper my trainer uses them for her dogs and she says they work great as long as Im in the area of the dog (meaning not doing yard work etc)

Thanks

[spidey]

What specifically are you hoping to achieve? What specific problems are you having and what have you tried so far to fix them?

[GypsysMom]

With Chopper he does not have 100% recall, and what I want is to be able to have him in the yard with me ( I dont have a fence) without being in his kennel when Im outside playing with them, I will not get the IF they are useless, but I have heard several good things about the e-collars from numerous trainers I can get the unit for 2 dogs for $250 and unlimited training for $100 for both of my dogs (training on the e-collar that is) Gypsy is in Obedience training but I cant guarntee she will have 100% RECALL off leash and I dont like the idea of chaining her on a long lead to play fetch

[Mick Trainer]

There are many threads on the forum with regards to e-collars I suggest that you do a search and have a read. There are many points of view on such collars. As long as you are working with a trainer with the collar I think you will achieve great results. I would however have to question any trainer who will train the dog for life for $100. They clearly are not truly professional as they cannot make a living doing training for that price.

Mick.

[AngelBunny]

Seems to me the people who're singing you the praises of e-collars are selling them.

Let's say you put an e-collar on Chopper. He starts off after something or other. You stim him. He stops. You call him. He doesn't come to you.

Do you propose to stim him again? What if he still doesn't come to you when you call?? You're going to have to go after him and if he sees you coming after him, he may take off. Are you going to stim him??

I think you'd be better advised to continue training, put up a fence, or put your dogs on a long line--it doesn't seem to me you've thought thru exactly why you're looking at such a solution to what appears to be an issue better addresssed by more training.

[fbkeays]

I got one years ago for Fizbin in herding. He doesn't have a real reliable stop and I thought that would be an easy fix. I had not used an e-collar before and I didn't accomplish the results I wanted.
Now fast forward a few years. I have started taking private obedience lessons. I was using a tennis ball as a reward. We were in a HUGE private field. Fizbin went after the tennis ball and kept on going. He refused to come back so I had to hunt him down. It took awhile because it was a huge field and Fizbin then decided to play keep away. I didn't engage in the keep away game, and was able to grab him when he realized I wasn't where I was supposed to be.
So my instructor told me to find my e-collar and have Fizbin wear it nearly every day for the next two weeks. The collar is not on and we do our normal activities, including lots of fun stuff.
We have our normal lesson and after a few minutes of doing heeling work, I release him while my instructor and I chat. When he is about 15 feet away called him. He blew me off. Instructor zapped him on a rather low setting. He jerked and I used my happiest voice and he came trotting back.
Repeat normal training session and repeat the letting him wonder. The second time I called him, he started to turn, but he wasn't looking at me. So instructor zapped him again. Again, lots of happy voice, praise and reward when he got to me.
We finished up the lesson and she told me to just let him go on ahead of us. I called him when he was about 20 feet in front. He immediately turned and headed towards me. To increase his speed, I started moving backwards. When he passed my instructor, he gave her the evil eye.
The next day I went to a different place to work on obedience. I had him off lead in a fairly safe, but open place. I let him pee on two bushes, and then called him towards me. He decided he needed to pee some more, so I zapped him. He got the point. His heeling was spot on. His stays under distractions were perfect. He seemed happy and relaxed. I didn't need to use it during the rest of the training session.
Now for the small print. Fizbin's formal recall has gone down the tube. He will not come on the first call. He will no longer play ball, even tho no ball was present during the e-collar training. I know those things will come back with extra patience and practice. As all things, you fix one thing, but two things break.

[GypsysMom]

Well her answer to the price question ( i felt the same cheap you know) and she charges $150 for 2 dogs but If I buy the collar from her she discounts the training by $50, she mentioned it only takes 1 session for the training on the e-collar and if it takes any more she is more then willing to help me at no charge, she is very well known and my trainer also knows this lady and has nothing but excellent things to say about her, she owns her own training business, gromming, boarding and dog park I have talked to her for several years but never did training since she stopped doing group classes..

I would try one with Gypsy when she is 8 months but I still will always have obedience with her no matter what, I cant afford a fence for 2 acres of land, my dogs are not out much only when they are in their kennel or to potty, I will read up on it and get more information before I make a purchase

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by GypsysMom

I would try one with Gypsy when she is 8 months but I still will always have obedience with her no matter what...

I'm raising my eyebrows at the thought of using an e-collar on an 8 mo old puppy whose training has just started.

Originally Posted by GypsysMom

I cant afford a fence for 2 acres of land...

It may cost less to fence than you think.

We fenced 1-1/2 acres of our backyard. We did the work ourselves (two adults). In the woods where it can't be seen, we have rusty, ratty, ugly, mismatched fencing. The only new fencing is what people can see and what can be seen from the house.

Originally Posted by GypsysMom

...my dogs are not out much only when they are in their kennel or to potty

Then, putting the dogs on a line seems a kinder, less expensive solution to me.

[GypsysMom]

You think a line is kind? everyone says its mean... well I was told 6 months is the norm for an e-collar but I thought it was too young, Gypsy stays with me in the yard with the exception of running to the rabbit hutch, but its still in my yard, what we did think about doing in the spring is fencing a 5000sq ft area with the kennel fencing which is welded wire, I estimated it at $400 5000sq ft is alot!~! We are putting up some kind of diversion fence inbetween the neighbors I would like to do a privacy fence all the way down and then somehing easy and cheap around the rest of the yard so I can still see the deer and woods from my yard... Im just throwing ideas up there No cash to spend at the moment until I go back to work

[AngelBunny]

Originally Posted by GypsysMom

You think a line is kind?

If you and your dogs are out in your yard as little as you say you are

Originally Posted by GypsysMom

my dogs are not out much only when they are in their kennel or to potty...

I see nothing wrong with putting your dog on a line and really don't understand your interest in an e-collar.

But, the fact I've not seen a need to use one--espeically on a puppy--in more than 22 years of Rottie ownership shouldn't deter you.

Before we fenced our yard, I'd put a dog on a line and tie one end to a tree while I gardened. When the dog got bored, he or she went into the house and out came the next dog for awhile.

[spidey]

I'll also point out that there is NO SUCH THING as a 100% reliable recall, and you're much more likely to get close to 100% with positive reinforcement. Google "really reliable recall". I also don't see why you'd put an e-collar on a dog who can by no stretch of the imagination be considered trained, corrections are for AFTER the dog has been trained to perform a behaviour.

I'm also very skeptical of this trainer's pricing - you get what you pay for, and often with things like e-collars you get all kinds of things you didn't want. Used properly, by experienced people or under the guidance of an experienced trainer who understands the proper timing, they can be very useful, but I don't think your situation is the right one for this, and I don't think your expectations are reasonable. It sounds like you almost want to use this as a sort of electric fence, and electric fences don't work reliably either - every dog has something they'll brave the zap for. Putting your trust (and your dog's life) in an e-collar or electric fence is asking for trouble, the ONLY 100% guarantee that your don't won't run into the road/chase a kid/bite the mailman is a physical barrier: a fence, a wall, a strong line. Period.

[fbkeays]

I did want to say that my obedience instructor does own an e-collar, but she has never used it on her own dogs. She has it for clients to enforce recalls or other safety issues. Never for polishing.
I am thrilled that Fizbin is coming when called, but I know if he sees a squirrel or other high interest item, even with an e-collar on high, he will still go after it and not come. I know that from herding. He is a very good rottweiler and will over come adversity to do what he thinks he needs to do.
The collar worked very well for teaching him that he can not blow me off "just because". I do not allow him off lead in unsafe areas. When I train in my front yard, I put up those portable babygate ring gating to block the open areas to the driveway. I have very good dogs, but I don't believe in 100%. I believe in 99% and fear the 1%. So I try to minimize the 1%.

[rottnelmo]

Most e-collars are used on strong hard headed labs. Please remember that.

I would go to an e-collar trainer that works with ALL breeds, not just hunting breeds and get a lesson and WATCH how the work dogs on the collar.

Most importantly the e-collar is used to fix and correct commands that are already known. So it would be used to fix the blow off on the come command.

E-collars are another tool, just like prongs...they are not right or wrong, nor are they right for every dog. Get an experienced e-collar trainer to help you.

[debbiej]

I'm coming in a bit late here, and I have no real experience. but I spent some time talking to a trainer I take Boris to when I can afford her. she is a bit on the tough side when it comes to training. I asked her about using an e collar on Boris, and she was hesitant. she said we could go on to that, but we had to learn some finer points first. He is at least 2, and has had a fair amount of training. I'm not an expert, but have taken enough dogs through obedience classes that recall isn't my biggest worry. I think, from reading, that e collars have a place as an effective tool. but from the sounds of it, this trainer may be cutting a few corners. just my opinion.

[Mick Trainer]

Few issues bring out emotion like e-collars and few pieces of training equipment are more misunderstood. I too would have concerns about using an e-collar on a pup in this position. Not simply because of it's age (a dog can be taught to have a very good recall by 6 months of age and will understand how to avoid the compulsion from the e-collar at this point so as long as the stimulation is low the pup will be comfortable with handling it and will learn quickly by it) but more to do with the fact that I get the idea from the author of the thread that the pup at this stage does not have a very soundly learnt recall and like others here I prefer to use e-collars to condition only the last stages of the learning process once the dog can easily understand how to avoid the compulsion.

You see the danger with e-collars (and any other piece of compulsive equipment) is that when a dog recieves unpleasant stimulation it will try to avoid this by altering it's behavior. To be able to do this successfully it must be able to link the stimulation with a certain behavior and thus will avoid doing this behavior to avoid the stimulation. Now the danger with compulsion is that 1) it is too high which causes to much stress to the dog thus reducing the learning ability and 2) that the dog does not or cannot make the link to the behavior and thus does not know how to avoid the stim in future. This can cause a few problems. One of these is that the dog will learn that the stim is just a part of day to day life and basically is to be ignored but more commonly with e-collars is that the dog makes the association to some other stimulation present at the time of the stim. You will see some dogs when trained incorrectly on an e-collar may look down as if the ground is hot. Where as if the dog truly understands what is required of it yet simply is not correctly conditioned to do it each time then when the stim from the collar is given it understands clearly what it must do to avoid the compulsive stimulation. Thus the learning is quick with few if any side effects. So for me when using an e-collar I 1)want it on as low a level of stimulation as possible to get a reactio from the dog and 2) that it knows what is required so that it can quickly avoid the stim. I find if I do this I avoid and potential problems through misuse and gain the desired reponce.

Now I should point out that it is not impossible to train a dog well and with very good results using an e-collar from day one it is simply not my preferred method as I feel the potential for problems when I leave the customer to do the training is too high. It can and has been done very effectively by many, many trainers.

I too would also have concerns about relying on a recall to the level that you are speaking of. I do believe that you can get a very reliable recall but as others have said not 100%. The problem here is that it will only take the one time that the dog does not recall for there to be a problem. No one expects their dog to run off and get hit by a car, fight that other dog, bite someone etc etc etc until it happens. I'm sure that this training could work and would probably work well for the rest of the dogs life, however if it one dasy doesn't the cost could be high.

and you're much more likely to get close to 100% with positive reinforcement There is absolutly no reason for this to be true. There is no reason that you would gain a more effective recall by removing 2 opperant conditioning tools from the learning process. There is no reason that you cannot positive re-enforce as well as negativly re-enforce in the same teaching process and thus gain a more effective learning process. In the end a good recall is learnt through conditioning the animal to the point that it becomes a learnt responce (taken from a thought process to an almost reactionary behavior). There is no doubt that this can be done through positive re-enforcement but equally so it can be done by adding compulsion to the process and in my experience this does nothing but speed the process up once done correctly.

But, the fact I've not seen a need to use one--espeically on a puppy--in more than 22 years of Rottie ownership shouldn't deter you. Using any piece of training equipment is not about "need" as much as it is about making the process easier. I use vaslty less equipment in the training of my own dogs than I encourage my customers to use as I do not need such equipment to get the job done eyt I understand that using the equipment will make the process easier for them and faster which is always a positive for them. If the handler/dog will benefit from the equipment and can use it correctly then there is nothing wrong with using it. Gaining true knowledge which would allow someone to find no need for any piece of equipment one person dislikes for one reason or another would mean that all owners would need to becomly highly educated in the learning process which whilst this would be nice is not realisitic. Equipment is used to help those owners/handlers who do not have the knowledge to handle their dogs in a way they are happy with.

Mick.