Traditional or Clicker?

[Rott'nBoy]

Hi everyone, lately I've been hearing a lot about clicker training on the forum and was wondering what exactly it is, and how everyone feels about it as opposed to the traditional method of training. Pros/cons, anything would be great. (Sorry to the moderator if this belongs in the "Training" section, I wasn't sure) Thanks again.

[frontierrots]

The clicker is not just a gadget! It marks (photographs) the exact behavior you want. Praise and rewards are never that accurate or precise- especially for the average pet owner! I taught traditional classes using reward and praise for many years and I switched my classes to clicker a few years ago and will never go back. The clicker helps the dog clearly understand exactly what part of his behavior is being rewarded.
And no you don't have to carrya clicker around forever! Once the dog is 100% at a behavior you don't need the clicker when practicing that behavior unless you wat to fine tune it

[ April 19, 2001: Message edited by: Hawk ]

[SarasMom]

Rottn Boy,

Some people who don't understand the theory/concept behind clicker training feel the need to bash those who use it. I don't know why. It doesn't injure the dog. It does work. I learned it from a trainer that competes in obedience shows. And yes, her dogs do get obedience TITLES.
I would encourage you to read Diane's link and then do some more web search about it.
The greatest things about clicker training are:
1) you can start at 8 weeks old
2) it utilizes the dog's ability to think

I saw a video once where a cat was taught to run through an obstacle coarse by using clicker training. If a cat can learn that, think of what a dog can do. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif

[Chakamac]

Yes there are many roads to Rome and l have used clicker traininig. I've trained over thirty dogs to different titles and dogs for service work and I've trained marine mammales. Clicker training is great. But why do you need to send all that time getting the dog to connect with the primary reinforcer and the click. When you would be better to control your poor human emotions and teach the dog that good dog and pat are the clicks. But simply sit with your puppy strok it on the head and feed it at the same time and say over and over again good dog. Then once the dog responds to the praise and the pat then you can train. Off course when you have a dog that has been total desensitized to being touched and spoken to like it's a human then may be you would need to resort to cliker training.

[frontierrots]

Obviously Chakamac you are not as good of a clicker trainer as you think if you think praise and reward is as fast and effective as clicker. I have trained hunreds of dogs both ways and the difference is absolutly amazing. OF COURSE you still pat and praise your dog but you should know the clicker marks the exact moment in time you are rewarding! Faster and much more accuratly than any huma can respond! As to conditioning the clicker- I don't bother doing that as a separate step nor do most dog clicker trainers. The dog picks it up through training and by the second session they have the connection down pat.
You are cetainl misleading everyone on the board with your replies and if they are indeed your experiences then I have to wonder what you've been doing wrong in training that made them so because clicker is the easiest method for dogs to learn and for inexperienced people to use!

------------------

Diane
Frontier Rottweilers & Shiba Inu and
Volunteer with NorthEast Rottweiler Rescue & Referral http://www.rottrescue.org

[judy v]

Whatever works for you and your partner is surely the way to go. Learning is about keeping an open mind, then accepeting the ideas that work for you, and eleminating those that don't. I've seen both methods produce wonderful results.

[Robert Bravo]

fronterotts

You said a person could never respond as fast a clicker? Well whos clicken the clicker? a person right?.

So then couldnt he just mark the "Time" With a simple word? Command? or sound? Shoot it could even be a hand signal or body movement.

I have no real problem with clicker training other then alot of people view it as something new and improved or even special. Wich it is not. The same concepts that aply to clicker training aplly to all dog training, whether useing positive or negative reinforcment.

Timeing
Anticipation
Consistancy

Are very big fundimantals of dog training. What i call TAC.

These fundimentals Must and need to be tuaght to all owners. If as a instructor I can do this effectivly the dog will learn.

The other main problem with most or maybe even all (not sure) clicker enthusiasts is that they are under this false impression that compulsion (negative rienforcement) Is not necisary in training a dog at Any Point.

And thats just not true.

Can dogs be taught to behave and respond to commands under ALL AND ANY destrcation, without the use of compulsion? Sure SOME CAN.
But not all. Actually most cant.

As a teacher we need to be able to use various style of training to be able to train and teach every owner the skills necisary to bring thier dog to a high lvl of obedience.


Wich leads me to another point. I have seen quite a few dogs that have been trained using NO COMPULSIOn methods and to be honest I was NEVER impressed with the results.

yeah they Knew the command. Did they respond well. Sure during training. But as soon as there owner would leave the training field. All controle was lost.

And each and every owner i talked to was completly lost and confused with no idea what to do about it.

Now one more point. We know that good behavoirs get rewarded with positive reinforcement to ge tthe dog to learn I.E praise or a treat. So now the dog has learned that if he sits he will get rewarded.

but what if the dog doesnt want to sit?. What if the stimulus is so strong the dog could care less for the treat? What does he learn?

Just like they learn the consiquences for a good action, they have to learn the consiquences for a bad action.

Soem will argue that if you condition the dog properly they will never do a bad action. Well i am under the firm beliefe that conditioning will only go so far in certain aspects of dog training.

things that will effect conditioned responces

1. Instincts.
2. drives.
3 and the all mighty freedom to decide.

Cnditioning a dog to a certain behavoir that will overide one of those things. especialy the first 2. Is nerly impossible. especially for the novice i just bought a dog and hes nuts can you help owner.

So when a dogs prey drive kicks in when he sees the cat run out across the road and he gives chase, The owner can click her butt off all day long and its not going to come back.

when the dog gets a wiff of fee fee down the road in heat, and the owner says stay and hopes her tid bit is going to be anough to reinforce fidoes desire to stay and not go running off to reproduce, i bet on the dog running for fee fee.

i could come up with many more senerios where training a dog with only indicive training methods is going to fail.

Well thats my two cents anyway.

Oh and by the way for those who know me or remember me I am BACK http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[poncho]

Let me stir this up a bit http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif. If your only going to train on the clicker, What happens when heavens forbid your dog goes deaf and can no longer hear the clicker?

No offense to anyone doing clicker but, in the park the other day there was a guy with a deaf big mixed breed. The guy did say he was really glad he taught both voice and hand sig's, cause he would not be able to control his big dog without doing so.

IMHO, you are better off to do both. My girl responds to voice or hand signals, I'm going to do clicker as well just to add some challenge to her daily ob training.

[Vicki]

Rott'nBoy, there are many things my dogs and I like about clicker training. In clicker training, you first get the behavior, then tie it to a command. Since the clicker is so accurate in marking the desired behavior, you can reward partial behavior; it's not all or nothing. For example if in traditional training you say "sit" and the dog bounces his bottom on the ground and springs up you probably just said "good dog" when he hit his feet, rewarding the wrong behavior. In clicker training the click captured when he hit the ground, and that's the release for the dog, so no problem. You can go from there to keeping the dog in the sit longer and longer, it is easy to teach the "stay" command with a clicker. Clicker training gives the dog lots of feedback and information, which is often lacking in other kinds of training. I think there are a number of reasons for this, first that any step in the right direction is rewarded. So if you are looking for down and the head is dipping you can click. The dog learns that he is on the right track and will keep offering behaviors until he figures out what the trainer is looking for. If the dog is way off track, clicker trainers have a way to let the dog know. I use the word "cold", in a neutral tone, and the dogs know they need to do something else. I find it very rewarding to be in the role of helping the dog learn what I'm asking for, rather than correcting the dog for not understanding. Clicker training also puts the onus of learning where it should be, on the trainer rather than the dog. So suppose one day after several good sessions the dog is kind of goofy and seems to remember nothing of former training sessions. All is not lost, as a clicker trainer you understand if the behavior falls apart, lower your standards and go back to building the behavior. I've seen it on the board many times, something like "my dog is trained and knows . . . BUT" and the "but" of course really means the dog is not trained and does not know the command. I think this is where some people are confused, they take this and extrapolate that clicker trainers never fully train their dogs. They are quite wrong, my clicker trained dogs are very reliable and since they are cross over dogs I can tell you that they love clicker training. For those who will tell you any food rewards are evil I'd like to point out that the dogs nose for the hand with the clicker, NOT the hand with the treats. Rottweilers in particular love clicker training, they really shine when given a chance to use their great intelligence in training. I urge you to observe a clicker training class, it really is something that must be seen to be appreciated. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[LisaS]

Originally posted by poncho:
Let me stir this up a bit http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif. If your only going to train on the clicker, What happens when heavens forbid your dog goes deaf and can no longer hear the clicker?

.

the click is used in training to mark the correct behavior - while learning. It is not the cue/command for the behaviour or the reward for correct execution.
Once a dog learns a behavior, the clicker is "faded" until it is no longer used, just as treats and toy rewards are faded in favor of verbal praise or petting.
You end up with a dog that will work on signal, voice or whatever cue you have established.