allow to growl when playing tug of war?

Should I allow my rottie to growl when playing tug of war? He is a great dog with absolutely no dominance problems, and is very well-behaved in general. He give the toy when I say 'out', pretty much right away.

I have been allowing and actually encouraging the play growling when we play tug, but lately I notice that I can really get a stronger growl when I put my hand over his muzzle as we tug. He will really get going with a strong growl then.

Now it occurs to me I might be sending mixed messages or expecting too much of him to distinguish when it is OK to growl at me and when it is not?

Thanks for any advice.

[WorkinDogz]

Very touchy subject...but excellent question.

Tug 'o war builds drive and confidence; not really *aggression* per say, that's why it's discouraged in many FINE books on the breed and training in general for the AVERAGE dog owner.

Dogs gain confidence by "winning". People who work dogs in sport make a special EFFORT to PLAY tug 'o war; letting the dog WIN EVERY TIME. Doesn't take long till the dog thinks he's da bomb. THAT can lead to "challenges" in other areas however. The "average" dog owner is looking to control drives; not build them.

If the dog is NEVER ALLOWED to win; it can create confidence problems. It's a double edge sword.

I don't encourage growling. Many times (in big dogs working in sport) a dog that growls on the sleeve is exhibiting UNSURENESS. Sometimes growling can be a "learned" behavior; but many times it's simply the dog telling you he has some nerve issues.

[LisaS]

I've always taught my dogs to give up any object when told. I've also always played tug with my dogs, and generally let them win to build confidence and drive. This can be taught as two different situations and the dog can learn when its ok to hang on and tug, and when to "out" or "give". The key is that the rules must be clearly taught so he has a chance to learn them.

There have been other posts on this and in at least one, Jean Donaldson's rules for playing tug (from The_Culture_Clash) were quoted. You might want to do a search and see what you find.

[This message has been edited by LisaS (edited July 01, 2000).]

[damp]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:
Very touchy subject...but excellent question.

and excellent answer. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/wink.gif
Tug o war is great play done in the right way. But I will never recommend this game to novices or inexperienced, if the dog has any kind of dominance related problems.
I play tug o war; it is a must for a hopefully coming working dog.

[HackN2it]

I play tug-of-war with my rottie but, I decide when we are done and I am always the winner. I take the rope away and put it up where my little one can't get it. My pup doesn't growl when playing either.

Hack

[CarolineS]

I have played tug with every dog I've ever owned, because they love it so much. I've always had rules though. I don't let them initiate the game. I start it with Maggie by telling her to "get the rope". She'll run and pick it up and bring it back to play tug with. Sometimes I let her win, sometimes I win...depending on how the mood strikes me. When I've had enough, I tell her "drop it, enough" and she knows the game is over. I don't think that letting the dog win occasionally is going to cause dominance problems, as long as you control the game and set the rules. Maggie doesn't growl when playing tug, but some of my other dogs have. It doesn't seem to mean much other than "I'm having a good time and I'm going to 'kill' this rope". I've never put my hand over the dog's mouth when playing, so can't offer an opinion on this.

I'm just talking about this from the viewpoint of a pet owner, not someone who has a dog involved in any dog sports. Maggie is a pet, involved in Therapy work, and it doesn't seem to have done her any harm. I don't think it's a good thing to play if you're having any training problems, but as long as it's under your control and your dog understands the rules, I think it's a good, fun game for a dog.

[Nancy Estes]

I agree with Caroline. And it depends a lot on the individual owner and the individual dog. As far as growling, a lot of dogs do this in play - just as they do with each other when they play. Other dogs will growl out of insecurity. The average pet owner isn't going to be able to tell the difference. As far as Beagles, or scent hounds in general go, they can make great indoor pets - I've had several. BUT, they are very independent as they have been bred to hunt with minimal direction from humans. Actually, my experience with pet Beagles from a field kennel has been that they are most responsive and obedient when hunting - because this is what they were bred to do. They can be hard to housebreak/train because they are so independent. If there's no cooperative hunting/working activity going on, they make their own rules. I've never had one that would play tug-of-war - their idea of the game is "You let me have the toy/ball/whatever and I run and you try to catch me. I don't retrieve it for you because it's mine!"

Nancy

------------------
von Dorow Rottweilers

I checked here before playing tug o war and was told it is OK depending on the dog and situation. My little guy will bring his rawhides over to me to tug. He really likes the game. Again, I make sure he always gives the toy when I say'out'. The growl seems to be a byproduct of the tugging, and hasn';t seemed to caused any problems in general. Except for the kind of growl I get when I put my hand over his muzzle as he tugs, I have felt pretty comfortable with the growling. I guess now I am thinking I may be pushing him too far by putting my hand over his muzzle as he tugs.

[T E Tuiala]

Sargent and I play tug-of-war almost on a daily basis and he just loves it. He's only still a pup but I think the difference is that you must teach them to distinguish between 'playing' and not 'playing'
If Sargent growls when taking something off him, then a stern 'NO' will make them realize that its not a game. But when its playtime, then its ok to roll around, growl, and even bark a few times, all in the good light of playing and sharing quality time with them. This disables any acts of growling when perhaps taking something away from them, like their food bowl. He's learnt, that when mum or anyone takes something away, whether it be food or something else, its ok, and he steps back and waits. But when its playtime, he doesnt have to..hee hee..even though mum always turns out to be the winner, I always let him take the toy away and have a good chew. It works wonders for Sargent. They've just gotta know when its ok to growl while playing, and when not to. Good Luck http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

I do think this little guy needs some confidence building and the tug o war seems to help. He never growls when I relax my grip and say 'out'; he just drops the rope then. I have actually encouraged himn to growl when he tugs by saying 'tug ... tug .. tug'. I definitely know that the growl he is giving at this time is a 'revved up, kill the rope, this is realy fun' growl. The growl he gives whe I put my hand over his mouth as we play is a little different like 'now I am really protecting my prize from you and you should get away'. It almost seems unfair then that I am putting him in this position, as he never, ever defends anything from me or anyone else and he is one of the sweetest rotties around.

From what I am hearing it seems as if I should either not put my hand over his mouth when we are playing, or if I do and he growls in a much more menacing way, I should correct him for it.

[WorkinDogz]

k&s--

Tried to send you a private message but for some reason you're not a known member! (Don't be sad...I'm often times not a known member on AOL...lol)

At the risk of getting into a huge discussion on drives and how dogs move from one drive to another while performing the same task...I'll say this: The "game" moves from play/prey drive to DEFENSE/FIGHT drive when your hands are on the muzzle or the head and not on the tug 'o war object.

It's really a pretty simple yet complicated thing this tug 'o war. I COMPLETELY understand and AGREE with the books that advise pet owners not to engage in this game.

If you're not VERY careful, you can *push the envelope* and really have your hands full.

I know some people will disagree and that's ok http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/biggrin.gif

The "game" moves from play/prey drive to DEFENSE/FIGHT drive when your hands are on the muzzle or the head and not on the tug 'o war object.

WorkinDogz- this makes perfect sense to me and this is likely what is happening and why I get a different sounding, more intense growl when I put my hand on his muzzle. I will cease doing this! However, I will continue to play the tug of war because it seems he can handle this activity without causing any problems in his interactions with us. We will just keep it light and fun and make sure he gives the toy soon as we say 'out'.

Thanks for everyone's responses.

[czechrott]

If your dog is not a dominant "alpha" type, then playing "Tug o' War" with him is a great exercise to interact with him. The growling, often times, is because the dog is very excited, and enjoys this interaction. Of course, if you have problems over who is "Alpha" in your home, then this is not a productive exercise. If YOU control the game, then your actually reinforcing your position as "Alpha" to the dog, each time the game is played.

Playing like this with a dog doing bite work will not harm the training. It is completely different when the handler "Plays" with a dog, compared to a "Helper" who is, at times, challenging the dog.

"Tug o' War" is vital to the training of scent dogs, like a police Narcotic dog, or in my case, my police Cadaver dog. The motivation for these dogs to work is locating their toy. The "toy" is generally something that "Tug o'War" is played with after finding it. I have been involved in the training of numerous scent dogs, and I have not seen this "Tug o' War" game ever have a negative impact on the protection training.

[CarolineS]

k&s,

I got my dog as an adult, a 2 year old, and I've always played tug with her. She'll be six years old next month and I've never noticed it having a detrimental effect on her. There is so much more involved in having a dog that gets the upper hand, then simply playing tug with them. If your dog enjoys it and obeys your ground rules, don't worry.

Maggie has just recently started her work as a therapy dog. She passed the test with ease and, so far, has been nothing but gentle with the patients she's come in contact with and I fully expect her to continue on in that vein. http://www.rottweiler.net/rottie/smile.gif

[Fergy]

I've also played tug-of-war with every Rottie and GSD I've owned and never experienced any negative behavior from it. Most times Nero initiates it. While in the backyard, he'll go get either the ball or burlap bag, and prance it over to me in his mouth. It's play time. Sometimes I let my dog win when he gets a good bite and pulls really hard. I workout a lot so this is good for me also. But, the game always ends with me the victor! I always win the burlap bag, he always gets to keep the ball on the last throw. Personally I see nothing wrong with it.