Training by electrocution

[K9-man]

DoggGuy:

Your situation is exactly what these collars are good for. It was your last resort and it worked well for you. Good job!

[DoggGuy]

I am very happy your dogs are so well behaved and are so easily trained....mine isnt, well at least she wasnt. Since I got the collar she has taken to pretty much all training better. Her stays are flawless, her heel is good at all speeds even running through ANY distraction.

[Barbara Surplus]

DoggGuy, our training wasn't necessarily easy - it took a lot of work and patience on the part of mainly my husband (who is a stay-at-home dad and has the time to train the dogs) but also myself. Time and patience. I don't intend to sound smug but anything is possible with these dogs if you know the way. We may have to correct the dog gently but firmly many, many times in any circumstance and it can take months to see results in some areas but the time and effort we expend does pay off. Good luck to you.
Barbara

[my2rotties]

The only way I could see justification in use of a shock collar, is on a dog with severe behavorial or temperament problems. And this only being in a situation of life and death for the dog. Meaning, killing other animals or constantly trying to run blindly into free ways, just to name a couple.

I cannot see why anyone would use a shock collar for any sort of basic obedience training. To me, it looks like a lazy man's way of doing things. I think only a skilled and trained proffesional trainer should have access to such devices. This way the trainer would only use it in severe cases where there is no other option. I see the dog that is on that shock collar often, and she is a nervous wreak. This guy uses it everytime he barks out a command. Yes, the dog listens exceptionally well, and if you did not know that she was getting zapped everytime he made a command, you would be very impressed indeed. She is due for obedience trials very soon, and I am sure she will do well. I just wonder if she will be allowed to have that collar on at the time of the trials. Perhaps when a dog knows it cannot be shocked, it will not be as willing to obey, as a dog trained with patience and compassion.

I know that it is none of my business how other people decide to train their dogs. However, I have always chosen to be soft towards my dogs. If I so much as raise my voice a tiny bit, or even look at them a certain way, they know that I mean business. I hardly ever yell (has to be very bad), and choose not to do corrections with a choke chain. Yes, it does take time and patience, but I know my dogs do what I ask of them, because they want and respect my gentle guidence.

No matter how humane people claim a shock collar to be, it think that it is cruel. People do not electrocute their children when they make a mistake. I have always allowed my dogs to learn from their mistakes, in a positive and gentle manner. I find the very worst punishment to my dogs, is to ignore them. When they have done something wrong, and I show my disgust by pretending that they don't exsist, it is the worst torture that I can do to them. However, my requirements for my dogs, may not be as intense of what other may want from theirs.

All I want is for them to walk by my side, off lead, come when they are called, not leave the front yard (working on this with Diva and the odd rabbit now), and any basic obedience a dog must have. They know they are to be quiet, and well mannered representatives of their breed. I could not ask for more, and I have never had to frighten them or hurt them in any way to teach them these things.


[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited October 12, 2000).]

[Thomas Peuschel]

Czechrott,

I agree completly to your above statement. Electric collars are officilly forbidden on all VDH sports area´s, but also widely used in Germany. I quess, that nearly all of our top people in Schutzhundsport do use them.
There was a time were the electric collars have been widely used from all the amateurs in dog sport and the results have been a total disaster.
As you mentioned, knowing exactly how and when to use them they can be a powerfull tool for education. But most people do use them as a "force" tool in the completly wrong way. They are not the "wonder-tool" as advertised by Innotek in their behaviour video´s.

[Vicki]

Proofing dogs is a long process, and there are no reliable short cuts. You also see this in horse training, people that RUN for the twitch or throw rope at the first opportunity, in my opinion because they are semi-afraid or just outright afraid of the horse. Rottweilers, and other large dogs, get the same treatment. You don't see any shock collars on poms, wonder how they manage without them?

I don't know about using them on dangerous dogs who can't be trained without them, if the dog is so unreliable and bad doesn't that raise other issues? I do think it is interesting that those who use shock collars insist they don't cause any pain. If that is so, why not use a beeper collar, such as those used on bird dogs. I can assure you with training the dog will respond to the tone, no shock needed.



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[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

This method is a training method like it or not in the right hands it works wonders. Not every training method works for every dog I think no matter we can all agree on that. The two worse cases I've seen with a shock collar was 1) a person trying to housetrain a dog with one it was a beautiful samoyed and the guy use to rub his nose in his mess after he was done with the dog using the collar the dog rubbed his own nose in his mess just horrible, we took the dog into rescue. 2)A doberman that would pee all over herself when you called her name because she associated the shock with her name many of use know we only use the dogs name for positive interaction. These are 2 horrible cases of people having access to tool they new nothing about with no knowledge of the canine mind or thought process. One thing I can say for sure it is very hard to undo what a shock collar does. Yet, I do believe in them in the right hands, under the right circumstances.

[K9-man]

Originally posted by my2rotties:
[b]This guy uses it everytime he barks out a command.

NO! NO! NO! That’s NOT the way you use an electronic stimulation collar. Its no wonder that poor dog is a nervous wreck. The whole idea behind it is that you’re eventually supposed to be able to NOT need it. The dog should NEVER know that the collar is causing the correction. This guy is a CLASS A- MORON & down right MEAN!

My2rotties, sounds like your dogs have excellent temperaments. I used the soft gentle training method on my three Labrador retrievers, they’ve never even had a chocker collar around their necks, but with my Rott, Belle, it was a different story. At 13 months she decided she wanted to be Alfa and viciously fought with 2 of my Labs. That’s when the shock collar was utilized. It helped me keep my 95-pound Rott from fighting with my 65 pound 12 year old Labrador Retriever.
As far as obedience training I used a chocker collar for the most part. I used the shock collar for a couple things during off lead training but only had to use it a few times before Belle caught on.

An electronic stimulation collar is no more inhumane than a chocker or prong collar. They all cause pain and pain can be a great deterrent for disobedient behavior when needed. Its up to the human to use these training aids correctly.


[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited October 12, 2000).]

[WorkinDogz]

Excellent post Diane.

Key phrases: "In the right hands", "under the right circumstances".

[princelydeeds]

IT is interesting to note that those most vehemently against shock collars are MOSTLY female. Those supporting the practical, responsible use of the collars are MOSTLY male. What that means I have no clue.

I am no professional trainer, but I have seen where the collars really do weed out many undesireable problems. A friend of mine has a doberman that would run uncontrollably. While teaching to track the dog would try to run around until it eventually found what it was looking for but would not put its nose to the track to find it methodically. If this dog was off leash or on leash and saw another dog, it would run off with one of two things that both begin with the letter "F" on his mind.

This dog has since passed obedience and advanced obedience. The only way to deal with this running problem was the ecollar. My friend spent more than two years trying to curve this problem and the ecollar did it in two weeks. The dog isn't emotionally scarred, it doesn't cower out of fear of correction but you better believe it doesn't run off anymore. In fact he can do a long stay off leash while a dominate male walks several feet away barking at him on leash. No way in the world he would have ever done this without an ecollar.

I know this isn't politically correct speech but from a personal standpoint I don't remember getting "timeout" but I do remember getting my butt whipped. No one with any sense of responsibility would advocate the electrocution of dogs but whats wrong with fine tuning through attention getting corrective measures? When you have a tough hard, dominate dog there are few better ways to get his/her attention. Just because a few idiots do the wrong thing doesn't make everyone who uses a collar cruel and inhumane. In fact the same dog I mentioned earlier seems happier because now he can be trained easier. His owner can let him run free because now he has control even when he's off leash.

[Chakamac]

If you use a choker coller, halty , leather/ webbing collar, pinch/ prong collar or electric collar. You are using tools which can give the dog various levels of pain. If you do not supscribe to Saftey or escape avoidance training then take of all the collars, harness etc and let the dog just wander around. Because if you jerk a dog on a choker you give it pain and hurt it. And if you pulse a dog with an electric collar you give it pain but do you hurt it? Suggest you go read Saftey Training: The Elimination of Avoidence-Motivated Aggression in Dogs by Daniel F. Tortora written for the American Psychological Association. Journal of Experimental Psychology: General 1983, Vol 112, No.2, 176-214. The question needs to be asked what is the most humane way to deliver positive punishment. When you investergate the physcial damage that choker chains and to a lesser extent pinch/ prong collars can do to a dog then your oppinion of electric collars may change. There is no doubt that miss use of any training devise may lead to abuse. But a stick can do more harm than an electric collar. Let me but it to you this way you would have no objections to a paramedic giving you an electric shock to restart your heart when you have a heart attack. Or you would use an electric fence to keep your cattle from going on to the freeway. So don't use the electric collar on the dog for not coming back when you call him so he runs on the road and causes a major traffic accident. Besides as you jerk that coker collar (by the way it's a deep impact tool)and damage your dog trachea, bruising its neck and creat a little tissue damage. Just ask your self how electric impulses in your body work to move your muscles and relay imformation back and forth from your central nerve procesor (that your brain) might pay if some people used theirs once in a while. Cheers

[DoggGuy]

So are you for or against the collars?

[Chakamac]

I'm pro the use of any training device provided they are correctly used. Most opponents to aversion training have either failed badly in doing it or they just could never hurt their dog. They need to meet a few of the dogs that I've had to train. But from my experience with these types of people they usually run for the green needle.