Training by electrocution

[Thomas Peuschel]

We do have one of these "nice little collars" at home. It was bought because of our bitch hunting rabbits and other animals during walks in the forest (we do have lot of forest around our home).
Electrical collars are officially forbidden in germany, so it takes some time to get the model you like.
Before we got ours we started the SchH II and SchH III training with our Rotti-lady and when the collar arrived it was not necessary anymore !! This shows, that training with fair methods is always better.
We will keep the collar, because from our next litter we like to keep a boy for our own and if he starts hunting rabbits it will be used one or two times for correction. If done in the correct way this will help.
Up to now I have only used it at myself for testing purposes!!! After the tests I found, that it might be good to correct big disbehaviour problems, but it is cruel for training just normal commands.

Thomas

[Diane Heller-Vaccaro]

Any time Barbara.

The one thing I forgot to mention is that if your dog has a heart condition even a murmur something that has gone undetected you could kill your dog by using an e-collar. They should come with a warning and anyone considering an e-collar should have their dog checked prior to using. It really is a shame to see someone using this device for obedience training only in extreme cases should this collar be considered. That poor dog is learning nothing and has no idea why he suddenly feels this pain. I consulted a specialist for Nala but she does have a very pronounced murmur and it was too risky to use for her, the one thing that I clearly remember is that the dog should never know the collar is where the shock comes from your timing has to be perfect for this to work the dog should associate the shock with the act, not when you think the dog is going to act or after the act it will never work.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by HackN2it:
In the hands of a well trained proffesional trainer, A great tool. In the hands of your average Joe shmoe, a cruel and inhuman torture device!

Absolutely! E-collars have a place in dog training, but only in the hands of those people with true knowledge and expertise in the field. If it is done wrong, and someone abuses of it, then it will have detrimental effects on the dog. However, when it is done right, it does produce excellent results

The problem is with some so-called dog trainers that use e-collars as a punishment tool, while the novice has no experience in canine behavior and training, so there it goes the misuse.



[This message has been edited by German Vanegas (edited July 06, 2000).]

[Mick Trainer]

Using an E collar takes good knowledge of canine learning principles. There is so much to the correct use of these devices that the vast majority of dog owners would use them incorrectly.

It is rare to see one of these now days in Australia except with Professional Trainers. They should not bee used to simply "FRY" thhe dog when it does the wrong thing. Thhe person descrribed above has no idea what he is doing. To brag about the level of shock shows his ignorance. I cannot desribe here how to usee them corrctly (I would be writting for hours) but as a basic point it should be used to give the lowest level of stimulas possible and should be used with other correct training methods. Simply shocking your dog as a form of correctiion is incorrect.

Mick.

>>>I have a friend who's 4'11" and 90lbs and her Rottweiler bitch weighs about the same. She said she used a shock collar training device on low stimuli to train her dog. I see no negative side effects in her bitch from the method. Myself being somewhat old fashion, I prefer the old tried and true methods.<<<<
Fergy-

Your friend would be better off using a prong collar or a halti type collar.

It no longer surprises me how much misinformation is out there and it is all presented so well that even people who think they are educating themselves often fall prey. About a year ago my husband was under the impression that you could get a rottie pup (or another breed) and then send it off to the Monks of New Skete for 2 weeks to get trained up. We both thought that the electronic collars were another good training technique. FOrtunately we (ok, I'm being generous .... I) did alot of research and hooked into this forum and we abandoned both crazy ideas. Instead, I work with the dog every morning and we integrate training throughout the day. And we're no longer looking for a 'quick fix'!

[Orville Story]

Many of you are judging shock collars by one, two or even ten dogs that you have trained. But until you have trained a real nasty son of a gun your opinion is jaded. It is being based on dogs that don't need this type of correction. I am here to tell you there are dogs out there that will not respond to anything less. I don't use a shock collar, but if I were to be working with one of those monsters I would have a pinch collar, a shock collar, and have him tied of on a long line.

[czechrott]

Thomas,
e-collars (I think that some Germans call them "Tick-tock's") may be "forbidden" in Germany, but they are used a great deal there. In the last few years, I have personally seen one "leistung richter" take back 10 e-collars at one time ! I also believe that the "Electric Sleeve" was invented in Germany. (The police in Germany can utilize e-collars, officially).

I do not have a problem with e-collars, when used by skilled trainers. To use one properly, it's a lot more work than conventional training. It should also not be any more uncomfortable than a proper correction from a choke or prong collar.

I have said this before in posts. There are no evil devices, only evil trainers. Cruelty can come in any form. Choke collar abuse, prong collar abuse, throw chains, whips, nerve pinches, etc. We must be careful not to "throw the baby out with the bath water".

[Mick Trainer]

Whilst I agree with what Orville has said about people judging on a small number of dogs that are "SOFT" in temperament I just want to warn people about using electic collars on dogs Orville explained. Yes E Collars are effective on these types of dogs where little else is but once again there is more to this than simply hitting the dog with a great big correction. Do this to a real handler hard, strong civil dog and see what happens. Using E collars is an art that requires the user to truly understand canine behavior, learning priciples, and to have much experience.

Orville is corect though. Be careful judging any training device or method until you have used it and at least truly understand it. Just because you did not need a certain technique or tool to train your dog or your 10 dogs does not mean that it is wrong for some one else. This brings us to how to judge a training technique. A whole other subject.

Mick.

[WorkinDogz]

While I don't own any out of control dogs, or ones driven to the point of mindlessness; I found the e-collar to be the *long arm* of ME to discourage undesirable behavior such as fence fighting.

I would never suggest anyone invest in Mr. Tri-Tronics at the same time they buy their pup; in fact...I wish they WEREN'T so readily available!

Even after being in training for several years; when I first decided to use an e-collar, I did so under the direct supervision and watchful eye of someone who KNEW what they were doing. (I don't like "winging" it.)

I didn't just wake up one morning and decide today is the day I'm gonna light my dogs up! It was only after TRADITIONAL methods proved to be less than effective for this particular dog and his desire to give the Labs next door the "what for".

Training tools are only as effective as the handler using them. Many dogs are "screwed up" because people have gotten "zapper happy". It's common sense really; a trait that seems to be lacking more and more these days.

[Ct. Tom]

Orville....exactly!Tools used correctly can tune -up a car...not used correctly cause serious damage.So use the right tool on the right part and all goes well.
Without experience with the tool go to the dealership!Use a hammer on a carburator and the damage is done...analogy...right tool right situation fixes the problem!

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[DoggGuy]

I have a doberman that I E-collar trained and Im telling you that the difference is amazing. it totally kills the urge that dogs get as soon as they are off lead and know that they cant be corrected. Now my girl will walk right by a squirrel in the heel position and only look at it. also most collars have a warning tone that has no electronic stimuli and that is to give the dogs a chance to correct themselves before a shock is given. anyone who just shocks the dog needs to have the collar strapped on them with it on the highest setting and tape the button down

[K9-man]

Originally posted by Diane Heller:
the dog should never know the collar is where the shock comes from your timing has to be perfect for this to work the dog should associate the shock with the act, not when you think the dog is going to act or after the act it will never work.

Exactly! It’s all in the timing. You don’t have to be a “ well trained professional Trainer”, just a quick trigger finger and some common sense. I would be leery of using one on a human aggressive dog though. You never know how it might react, possibly turning on you.

[BrianO]

Katerina said it well.In the right hands a shock collar (a good one with adjustable intensities) can be a great proofing device.It's just like the gun debate - is the problem the tool (meaning the gun) or is it the tool (meaning the dimwit owner).I can assure all they worrywarts out there they are no "crueler" when used right than a choke collar, pinch collar or a muzzle.It's all in the way it's employed.

[Barbara Surplus]

Originally posted by DoggGuy:
Now my girl will walk right by a squirrel in the heel position and only look at it.

My boys do that without shock treatment
Barbara

[DoggGuy]

the reason the collar was bought primarily was A: her prey drive is phenominally high. I mean she is totally wired all day. when she is outside she runs constantly and when she does see squirrels she chases them up a tree and then spends the next five minutes trying to climb the tree herself, the whole time she is crying and screaming. and this is not only to squirrels, rabbits, birds, cats, anything that is smaller than her....So she spent most of her life on the end of a leash getting dragged away from everything. I bought choke collars first, they had very little effect the intensity she felt when she saw a small animal was too much for the collar to even phase her. So I got a pinch collar, which was great for training purposes and I still have and occasionally use to this day, but again a squirrel is just a tad too tempting. and I would use the collar as soon as she noticed the squirrel, not as she chased it. Then I got her electronic collar I think I have had to use the shock function 5 times in the month and a half i have used it. and the highest it has ever been on is five. and that was only used once for a squirrel. now when we walk and she looks at the squirrels i just say "no" and that is it. She might look over her shoulder at it and watch it run away but she stays right by my leg. I dont care what anyone says these collars are a great. you just have to use common sense and your heart when you use them. Its like with your kids you love them enough to punish them "for thier own good" and I know the life that she had before wasnt one that she really enjoyed she had to go outside when I wasnt home because noone else could get her to listen. now she gets to be in the house full-time and we spend a lot more time together, she used to get a little dog aggressive but now she is so well behaved with other dogs my friends dont mind her coming over.