Teaching "down" without a hand...

[Rhea's Mom]

Rhea (3 months old) will be going to classes following her last vaccination (vac next week, classes start first week of June), meanwhile I've been practicing / training her at home. She "comes", "sits", listens to "leave it" and "no bite", currently working on "watch me" and "stay". She did wonderful with "down" - I used suggestions from this forum (put a little piece of treat almost underneath her belly and let her "fold" her body while sliding on the hardwood or linoleum floor), but ONLY if my hand was pointing to the ground or on the ground and I'm almost at her eye level. Otherwise she sits down and gives me the look. As soon as I motion with my hand towards the ground and repeat "down", she complies.

I can give her any command whether I'm sitting down or standing up, but the "down" one just seems to escape her. I think I overdid it with the hand motion from the beginning and now the hand motion itself, not the "down" command became her cue. Any ideas how I can reverse my screw up?

Thanks!

[Ninasmom]

To me, it doesn't sound like a screw up. It just sounds like she needs more time. Down is one of the hardest commands for dogs to master. I liked training my dogs with both hand signals and verbal commands. As they got older, I could switch off between both commands and the dogs would do what I needed them to do. Give her more time. It sounds like she's on the right track.

[kayozzy]

Also, I have heard that dogs respond better to hand commands than verbal, so it sounds like she knows the hand command and still needs more time to learn the verbal. Do both commands at the same time until she realizes that the verbal means the same thing as the hand signal. She'll catch on!

[GypsysMom]

HI there Im in MIchigan to May I ask what did you teach first? I have read you should start with "come" With my other dog I started with sit.
Gypsy is 7.5 weeks old and she already knows sit I thought it was a fluke but each time I say sit so she can have her treat or her food dish or to put her leash on she does.. no hesitation. I work on come alot inside when she is where she shouldnt be.. Also How do you teach "watch" My American Bulldog Mastered Down so easy I dont even have to tell him now he just knows If he wants a treat he must sit and laydown Then he gets it.

Im now working on her attitude Sometimes when I take things from her that she finds and replace them with her toys she will growl and try and bite me but I tell her "No" firmly and she settles down, She is still trying to see if she can boss me... She got me good today she turned her head and bit me (no blood) I havent done this until today but when she did that I closed her muzzle til she calmed down and she stopped But Omg that hurt.. She was freakin out but the muzzle thing did calm her and she was fine and continued playing with the toy I gave her.

Any other tips would help me as well Kim

[Luvs]

It sounds like you are doing a good job teaching her "down". As was already mentioned, down can be a difficult command for them. I always start my puppies with both the hand signal and voice command and eventually get to where I can alternate between the two.

It seems like it takes them a little longer to learn to down without a hand signal. Be patient, continue as you have been and it will come

[Rhea's Mom]

Originally Posted by GypsysMom

HI there Im in MIchigan to May I ask what did you teach first? I have read you should start with "come" With my other dog I started with sit.
Gypsy is 7.5 weeks old and she already knows sit I thought it was a fluke but each time I say sit so she can have her treat or her food dish or to put her leash on she does.. no hesitation. I work on come alot inside when she is where she shouldnt be.. Also How do you teach "watch" My American Bulldog Mastered Down so easy I dont even have to tell him now he just knows If he wants a treat he must sit and laydown Then he gets it.

Im now working on her attitude Sometimes when I take things from her that she finds and replace them with her toys she will growl and try and bite me but I tell her "No" firmly and she settles down, She is still trying to see if she can boss me... She got me good today she turned her head and bit me (no blood) I havent done this until today but when she did that I closed her muzzle til she calmed down and she stopped But Omg that hurt.. She was freakin out but the muzzle thing did calm her and she was fine and continued playing with the toy I gave her.

Any other tips would help me as well Kim

Hi, Kim. There are so many threads on training on this forum, but every pup is different, so you have to learn to taylor all the suggestions to your rottie. Having said that - and I'm no expert with rotties (had 3 GSDs in the past), - here's my $0.02

1. We started with "come" (it seemed easier for us that way). But to be successful for us we had to pay attention to the "state of mind" she was in at the time we give the command: for example - if she was playing with one of us or exploring the yard or really-really into her toy - there was no way to get her attention from the first time. So when she was 9 weeks (we got her at that time) we would start training when she would be almost settled down for a nap or at least tired from playing. That way the command would "register" in her brain better and she wouldn't be overwhlmed with other distractions. Gradually we would call her when she would be doing something else and PRAISE, PRAISE, PRAISE when she would leave her favorite toy to come to us when called. Now it doesn't matter what it is that she's doing - she'll come to us because she knows that's the priority.

2. "Watch" - get her attentione first - once again, when she's calmer, not when she's so worked up with play or treat - I call her name and snap my fingers, then say "watch me". Started with having a treat in my mouth - like a tiny piece of turkey hot dog that I would spit out at her when she responds to the command, and PRASIE, PRAISE, PRAISE. Now we don't need treats, she's doing pretty good with it. And always finish with a "release" phrase like "good", or "ok".

3. Instead of "no" we use several different commands - they're smart enough to learn all the different "no"s (as I've read on this forum ). We use "leave it" (working on "drop it") and say "no bite". Always redirect, always praise, and try training in short sessions throughout the day in different settings (like the backyard, vet's office, different rooms in the house, her crate, etc.)

You are in the right place to get great information on training, recognizing behavior, etc. This forum would help you a lot - but once again, a word of caution - every pup is different. Taylor all suggestions to your pup's needs and you should do great!

Which part of MI are you from (can I ask that here?)

Marina & Rhea.

[Rhea's Mom]

Thank you all once again for all your suggestions and support. I do tend to be an over-protestive over-achiever so you are my REALITY CHECK!

[GypsysMom]

Im in Fowlerville 20 miles east of LAnsing, I try differnet things with her when she has something she found I trade a toy or a treat and I firmly tell her No when she freaks out and growls and she calms down,, She is still young but there is no excuses for that growling

[mwaters]

Hi Rhea's Mom,

I too thought my boy would NEVER get to the point of downing on the word alone...but have patience...it will come. My boy now has a very fast and reliable down. What I did was create a 'chain' of events...I would get his attention, say 'down' (no hand signal), then if he didn't start moving on his own I would use my hand to lure him. Pretty soon he understood that when I said down the lure was coming so he would start to 'beat' me to the down. Pretty soon he was doing it just from the word. Always be ready to help with the lure but give him a chance to do it from the word first.

You'll get there...don't worry.

[Storm]

All education initially has some sort of body presence, sure one works away from this bit by bit and taht is what people must be aware of, gradually so the dog can still get a hint of the "pictur" yet it is changing. Once again for speed and reliability the dog must be in tune with you activated, if it is not then you loose the connection the dog is like I know you are there but I am busy here......................don't really feel like listening to you etc. That is why your initial associations are so important as it is the association for further development. You reinforce unatentiveness, uninterest and handler becoming active initially and you will dig a hole for yourself.

[Storm]

......................also as you work away from various body language you give the dog a chance with the command if they don't respond then tuff they don't get what you got but this approach is reliant to a dog driven for something otherwise he think HA HA keep it I don't care. My dogs actually get frustrated if I ask and they don't get it correct as they want what I got soooooooooooo badly and I battled with this concept but in every area he has improved and the more you ask the more they give in terms of correctness as long as one is consistent. The thing about training is you get what you reinforce and your dog's performance is an indication of what you reinforc. Sure not easy as if we all knew better we would only do the correct stuff but well so we all learn I guess.

[Rhea's Mom]

Just got done with my morning training session... We're getting there - "down" is 9 times out of 10 on the 1st try... I do still use hand signals for "down", "sit" and "watch me"... With "watch me" and "sit", I can safely interchange the verbal and the hand and she gets it every time. With down, I've been stressing the verbal more since her hand signal association is still pretty strong. I'm just happy that we got to the point of me not having to be on my knees or at her eye level for her to truly pay attention.

And, Storm, you are right - I also had to find something that Rhea wanted reeeeeally bad. We found that it's best to switch between treats (cubed cooked chicken - she doesn't care for store-bought ones), toys and praise (she gets verbal and physical affection - petting - praise every time before the toy or treat too)... I'm still trying to figure out what drives her most. Sometimes it's food, sometimes it's play, sometimes it's extra minute of petting... Should I know by now what it is that drives her most? She's a little over 15 weeks, we've had her since she was 9 weeks old...

[Storm]

yes she is still very young and at this age one should basically just get her ready for her session whereever it may be go out there and she must realise hey if a drive into you I get food, chicken etc. At this point I would work on multiple short sessions only imprinting the association of going out to work with her attitude of channeling into you. This association will get stronger and stronger and if you got something she really wants and doesn't pay attention then you just say tough and shoe her hwat she missed out on and end it. If your motivation is correct she will think damn I lost out and next time try harder. Secret short sessions, finish on a high and if you can get through the initial stage of developing this dog's attitude it will develop into something good. Dog's live by association, it is like hiding a cooked chicken in a corner in the back yard, first time you take the dog there and let them get it, next time the dog comes into the back yard he is kinda like I remember let me go look the third time he drags you from the door to the corner where it is.

[gnwhite]

I taught both of my boys, hand signals with verbal commands......I think it is important for dogs to learn hand signals. Distance training is why hand signals work so well.

It sounds like you are doing a great job, just be patient and consistent......your dog will learn in time. For teaching new behaviours.......the food reward or toy should be your dogs favorite thing......but only given at training time. Keeps the reward special.

Catching......
is usually the best way to teach a dog tricks or some basic obe. Every time you see your dog laying down, say down.....as your dog is laying down. Praise your dog and reward with a treat. Using clicker training is helpful for teaching many things.......But either way just using repetition should do the trick. Once your dog has learned the verbal command for "down" start praticing the verbal at the same time you give a hand signal.

..............Just make sure your dog understands the verbal command before moving on to adding the hand signal........only because the verbal was the problem not the hand signal.

As already mentioned......keep your lessons short, no more than 3 to 4 min. depending on your dog. You want to leave your dog wanting more not the other way around.

Norma Jean