Prong Collar and Yelping

[denverday]

Originally Posted by Ilovemypuppy

What the &*&%$# is all this self correcting CRAP?????? You don't train by allowing the dog to get so out of line that it hits the end of the leash...you TRAIN positioning, by positive motivation and patience in showing the dog where that position is...that means..you have to use your brain...not hoping the dog will read your mind.

I am sorry that I made a mistake of repeating what I had been told...as we are here to learn...I use the prong because Denver was jumping...I then position him in a sit and when he decided to jump on new people(which at times with his strength I could not reposition) I was told that he would self correct because the prong would give him a correction....
Sorry for upsetting you by stating my mistaken belief that what I was being told was correct...seeing as it worked.
So what ever you call it thats what I mean by self correction in training proper polite greeting.
I will be done now trying to give advise and leave it to you experts as I don't apperciate being jumped on about a possible mistake in my wording.

[Ilovemypuppy]

Originally Posted by denverday

I am sorry that I made a mistake of repeating what I had been told...as we are here to learn...I use the prong because Denver was jumping...I then position him in a sit and when he decided to jump on new people(which at times with his strength I could not reposition) I was told that he would self correct because the prong would give him a correction....
Sorry for upsetting you by stating my mistaken belief that what I was being told was correct...seeing as it worked.
So what ever you call it thats what I mean by self correction in training proper polite greeting.
I will be done now trying to give advise and leave it to you experts

It's fairer to the dog to get his attention before he launches and gets to the end of the leash.

[rencook]

Originally Posted by Ilovemypuppy

What the &*&%$# is all this self correcting CRAP?????? You don't train by allowing the dog to get so out of line that it hits the end of the leash...you TRAIN positioning, by positive motivation and patience in showing the dog where that position is...that means..you have to use your brain...not hoping the dog will read your mind.

Another thing that is said way too often is also CRAP...and that is that any dog will build up some sort of callous to a collar...OMG!! The only callous a dog builds up is a resistance to an inept handler.

I have to agree completely with the first part of your statement!!!
But the second part-I disagree. I have seen over my years of training too many labs, goldens, etc, that I've trained whose neck muscles have been HUGE from owners using prongs incorrectly-not knowing how to train their dogs, they go out and buy a prong-slap it on their neck-and let them pull away!! Then, over time, they come to the conclusion that it is not working and I have to deal with the aftermath. Pwoerful dogs with extra large neck muscles and a high pain tolerance from years of being "self-corrected".

[Ilovemypuppy]

Originally Posted by rencook

I have to agree completely with the first part of your statement!!!
But the second part-I disagree. I have seen over my years of training too many labs, goldens, etc, that I've trained whose neck muscles have been HUGE from owners using prongs incorrectly-not knowing how to train their dogs, they go out and buy a prong-slap it on their neck-and let them pull away!! Then, over time, they come to the conclusion that it is not working and I have to deal with the aftermath. Powerful dogs with extra large neck muscles and a high pain tolerance from years of being "self-corrected".

My suspicion would be that those dogs were never trained using a handler's brain to make a working connection and only brawn.....and muscles feel pain.

[denverday]

Originally Posted by Ilovemypuppy

It's fairer to the dog to get his attention before he launches and gets to the end of the leash.

He's not "getting to the end of the leash"...I have it tight and am holding a treat, so if he does stay down he gets the treat...If he jumps...he would be corrected...I only use it when I am in public and am trying to teach him to stay calm...we all make mistakes I might be...or maybe not

[Ilovemypuppy]

Originally Posted by denverday

He's not "getting to the end of the leash"...I have it tight and am holding a treat, so if he does stay down he gets the treat...If he jumps...he would be corrected...I only use it when I am in public and am trying to teach him to stay calm...we all make mistakes I might be...or maybe not

If you are "holding it tight" then your dog is getting a constant correction that he has no way of avoiding and no motivation to change his behaviour. The leash should be LOOSE except when a correction is necessary.

[denverday]

Originally Posted by Ilovemypuppy

If you are "holding it tight" then your dog is getting a constant correction that he has no way of avoiding and no motivation to change his behaviour. The leash should be LOOSE except when a correction is necessary.

I give up...I'm wrong...you are right ....I'm talking about there is no room to launch...not pulling the leash tight...Cant explain it all in words...

[Barry]

Originally Posted by denverday

I myself have tried the gentle leader...I did not have any better results...the prong is supposed to be used for self correction...one does not correct the dog with it....The shock collar is something people use to correct...I don't believe in them for me..there is a difference....Please know what you are talking about before you make such broad foolish uneducated comments.

Well , I guess Saran bears dog was yelping for joy when the prong collar was self correcting her. I have used the gentle leader with tremendous success for many years. Let me ask, when your prong collar is self correcting is your dog walking himself? I only use postive training methods. I fundamentaly believe compulsion methods of training belong to a bygone era. i.e before the understanding of "Modern Behaviorism" I think you should heed your own adivce and know what you are talking about before zealously leap down someones throat , who shares a different view point.

[kayozzy]

Denverday, I think the self correcting method for jumping sounds reasonable. If it worked, great! To learn to walk on a loose leash, it should not be self correcting. So everybody is right on that issue!

There are many methods for every task. That is why I say start with the smallest correction, and if that doesn't work, try a harder correction, until you have found the correction that works and is the least amount necessary. If a dog is still yelping after trying the collar after a couple days, I definitely think it is too hard of a correction. I would go to something like a gentle leader or harness.

For my puppy, I did every recommended training method I could find. Stopping when he pulled, walking backwards, giving treats when he was by my side. However, as he got bigger, these methods still weren't working. So, when he was big enough to seriously pull me, I switched to the prong. I try everything on myself first (bitter apple and pepper, etc.) and it is a very mild tool when used correctly.

I have also seen dogs that had grown used to pulling on the prong, and I don't know how they do it, whether it's muscles or thicker skin, but they do get used to it if it isn't used properly! I used a head halter on a dog with that problem and he barely pulled at all. There is no way he could have hurt his neck. Another training tool that has to be tried out to see if it will work for that particular dog.

[debbiej]

I have used prong, or pinch collar on different dogs for years. I am convinced that the properly fitted and handled prong collar is much less harmful to the dog's physical structure than a choke collar.

Since the correct use is AFTER the dog knows the command, what it means and what they are supposed to do, and choose not to do it, a correction is in order. It should not be used as a self correcting collar, a quick pop with the loose lead is the proper way to correct. A dog wearing a prong collar should never have a tight lead, you can't use the collar correctly unless the lead is loose. It takes a little practice to watch the slackness of the lead, the command and the correction. actual motion to deliver the pop takes some practice too. It usually isn't heavy handed. there is nothing cruel about giving a dog a correction it understands. Nagging a dog is ineffective, being indecisive in training is cruel.

as far as jumping, if a dog is wearing a pinch collar, and is on a loose lead and jumps, well, he will self correct when he hits the end of the lead. so his action of jumping further corrects. I think self correction is going to happen with some behavior, like lunging or trying to run after something. But the basic goal is to correct before the action begin. like you know the dog may jump. give the sit command, and if he starts to jump instead, you can pop a loose lead before he jumps to take the slack out. the correction is for not sitting, and it hasen't go so far as not jumping. Likewise, when you are in a situation where you know your dog may lunge or try to run, you can give the sit command, or leave it, and correct for ignoring that command. hope that makes sense.

[denverday]

Thank you....I will try to correct before he jumps....I might find this may work better....I was a little perturbed that I was jumped on so harshly and I guess got defensive...
I hope the OP realizes that this is just a tool and doesn't work for all dogs
Also Op may consider using a larger guage before using the medium guage one...might find it works without causing yelping.

[SaranBear]

Wow, thank you everyone for all of the positive comments and advice. For those who don't like the prong, sorry but I have to say it is WORKING.... "tears of joy" I can walk my baby, and it's fun now. We both actually enjoy walks much more now. To answer some questions. I checked and there are no sore spots. The collar is only on when we are training or walking ( for now, I clarified with trainer and she did say that the goal is to not have to use it in the future). Thankfully he has stopped yelping after the first 3 times. We keep the lead loose and when he looks like he's ready to "go" or is starting to pull ahead, I just do a u-turn and he has no choice but to follow me and pay attention. This has worked a miracle. He now "self corrects" by stopping or slowing down when he is even a little bit ahead of me.

As for other types of collars, we have tried them and either they were ineffective or we were to inexperienced. Chokes on him were BAD. He would just pull and pull and pull. We were afraid he would get hurt, same for nylon flat collars plus he broke a few, we tried a harness, but it was like he was pulling a sled (me being the sled) it just seemed to give him more power, lastly we tried a "gentle leader". I am not a fan,and he HATED it. He would get excited when he saw his leash, but when that thing came out he would turn his head, he also spent half the walk trying to get it off. It also left marks on him, and I worried about hurting his neck. It also didn't do much for pulling. So far the prong collar is working, but I think it is mostly the u-turn thing that has made all the difference.
Again thanx everyone!!

Sara N Bear

[rencook]

I'm Glad everything is working for you Sara!! Isn't it a joy when you can just go for a walk with your dog??
As to everyone on this post agreeing/disagreeing-an old trainer friend of mine once told me-"the only thing two trainers can agree upon, is what the 3rd is doing wrong!" So, use what works for your dog and have fun!!!

[Gunsey'sMom]

Prong collars aren't cruel or harmful when used properly. You can get hundreds of members opinions about the prong by going to the recent poll on them.

Myst, are you referring to the Martingale type choke?

We just put Gunner on a Gentle Leader- It's Awesome-It even comes with an instructional DVD on how to use it! It eliminates all pulling and gives you control of everything!

Here is a link for another type of useful collar recently discussed:
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/gen...le-collar.html

[Dugganmom]

I like the gentle leaders to i use them on both my rott and my choc lab when i am walking them. I was just in a car accident a few months ago and this is a great thing so they dont even try to pull even a little on my back!!!