Crate Training-and why I don't agree

[LisaMD]

I have gotten a puppy (20week old now). I posted a topic on crate training and decided, sure I would give it a whirl. From the day I started it, I knew it wasn't going to work. He started pottying in it (I've had prior posts on this topic), I tried to find a solution, took all of your advise and nothing worked, I mean this dog was just being stubborn-so I thought. So, I took him out of the crate but, left the crate inside with the door open (still using it sometimes at this point), he still would potty in the crate, infact, go to the crate just to potty. My house stank of urine so bad. I threw the crate out. No sooner did I throw it out, he began to understand what I was trying to train him to do. He now goes outside to potty and overall is doing much better with general house training. I didn't like the crate and I don't believe in crating my dogs. Why should I confine my dog in a tighter place than what he already has to be. I trained my first Rotty without the crate and now she can be left alone in the house completely by herself, no boundries without doing any damage what so ever. I can fully trust her in my house alone and I do it a night also. She has complete run of my house. I accomplished this by, training her on how to behave in the house. If she is crated, she would have learned how to live around her crate. That is not what I wanted, I wanted to teach her how to live in the house. For one, I am keeping her inside anyway-for her protection-let alone in a crate, in the house. It would have been like a double jail to her. Especially since she wanted to be outside, which most dogs do.
Anyway, I have opted to NOT crate train. Will never do it again. It's more of a waste of my time than it is benefical to him. I spend 8weeks on crate training, which may not seem like long enough, but since I stopped I have seen nothing but, 100% improvment on everything. His energy, his attitude, he is easier to work with and is learning exactly the way I want him to, how to live in the house.

Another reason I am posting this is because I'm sure you have all read the post on the woman who was getting abused and Missy steps in. This brings up another one of my long standing points about crate training. What if Missy was in her crate at the time? Could you imagine what could have happened? I don't believe crates are a safe place to "store" your dog. Missy saved her life. Had she been in a crate, the woman could have lost hers. What if there is a fire? your dog will have no place to go. Someone breaks in, for one the dog being in the crate will give someone the chance to break in. For two, it could be killer and as a mom, I'm sorry but, kids vs. dog. I love all my children (including my 2 rotties and 1 actual child)dont get me wrong, but push comes to shove. This is not an easy thing to say but, reality is reality.
I'm just curious as to how everyone feels about this, anyone who wants to throw in their 2 or 3 cents in, please do.

LisaMD

[Homerhomer]

you make many valid points, but what do you do when the dog can't be supervised (and it's not 100% reliable yet)? You probably would have to confine them to one, safe place. You may choose a room in your house, a crate or some other places. I chose a crate, works for me, and the dog goes there even if he doesn't have to.
Down the road, hopefully in the not to distant future, he will have a free run of the house at all times, but for the time being he will stay in the crate.
Peter & Homer

[SarasMom]

I don't agree.

I have had the pleasure of owning 6 Rotties, and all have been crate-trained, with excellent results. When they are pups, I don't have to worry about them destroying the house, and worse, ingesting something harmful. Housetraining is a snap. My most recent addition, Marshall, had exactly 1 accident while I was housetraining. A crate-trained dog always has his "home", wherever he goes. No matter how stressful the situation, the crate makes him feel secure. If a dog is crate-trained, you can take him most anywhere, and he'll be welcomed. If you have to stay in a hotel with your dog, it's much better to have a crate for two reasons. First, he can't damage the property. Second, if someone like a maid opens the door, he won't escape. I could go on and on with this list. I can't find a thing wrong with crates at all; I recommend them highly. I wouldn't raise another pup without a crate!

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Cherish Yesterday, Dream Tomorrow, Live Today.

[WorkinDogz]

I would have to ask where you bought your puppy from. If it was from a pet shop...no wonder he potties in the crate.

If it was from a breeder who didn't do things "properly" or from a shelter; you would have more problems with urinating/deficating in the crate.

You are absolutely welcome to do whatever you choose to do with your dog....but please don't say that crate training "doesn't work". If you set yourself up for failure; you will indeed fail.

Millions of dogs successfully survive crate training and puppy hood IN crates. MANY MANY aren't so lucky and die an early death in spite of good intentions and "puppy zones".

If you don't wish to crate train...don't.

It's a widely respected, much recommended and very humane way to keep an animal safe when used correctly.

Word of advice though....if your dog ever needs to be hospitalized...he/she is GOING to be in a cage.

[Dogfolks]

Well Lisa you get my vote! I've had dogs of all kinds for 30 years and I have never and will never use a crate. Without going into lengthy reasons I concur with your decision!!

Steph

[Sampson's Mom]

Sampson has been crate trained from the very beginning and we have had great luck with it. He has always slept in our room with us, but when we brought him home at 10 weeks we felt that was too young to have free run of our room. Even if we removed everything from the floor, he would still have been able to chew on furniture, not to mention I was afraid he would hurt himself trying to jump on the bed. He was never left in the crate for long periods of time, only during the night and for very short periods if my husband and I were both gone at the same time. In the entire time Sampson never had an accident in the crate. We also started teaching him house manners at the same time. The crate is not used in place of house training, it's simply a safe place for a puppy to be until he is properly trained. I know I said this in the previous post, but I'll say it again. Sampson is now 6 years old and loves his crate. It's his sanctuary from the kids and all the chaos in our house. It's still in our room with the door open. He goes in there when ever he needs a break or wants a nap. It's been a great asset for us.

[AngelBunny]

LisaMD:

My first Rottie wasn't crate trained, but he had a 10' cyclone fence pen attached to the garage; a dog door gave him access to the garage. Otto stayed in this pen while I was at work and stayed in the house at night. All my other dogs have been crate trained and all my dogs will be crate trained.

Since our dogs are crate trained, we can take them anywhere w/o worrying that they'll fuss if they don't have run of the house. Having crate trained dogs with elderly, frail parents (our parents are in their 80's and 90's and live in "just so" houses) has been helpful beyond words. Our parents like our dogs, but our dogs make them nervous because they're so big. Mo & I can bring the dogs to their houses, the dogs visit, then quietly and calmly stay in their crates. Everyone is happy.

I guess you aren't active in rescue because I can speak from personal experience that having a crate when you're fostering is useful. I think it's better to crate a dog that I've just started fostering and don't know from a hole in the wall than leave that dog unchaperoned and unsupervised in my home. That dog is *my* responsibility and I owe it to the dog and the rescue group to take care of him. Crating the dog when Mo or I can't watch him helps us do that. And transporting dogs who don't know each other is much safer if they're all crated.

Once our dogs are mature and responsible enough to have run of the house, we *don't* crate them in our home--they are crated as puppies. The crates come out when puppies are around, but are put away when the dog matures. So, your point about what would have happened had Missy been crated is moot--it's not likely Missy would have been crated as a grown dog.

You're right that crates aren't places to "store" dogs, but no proponent of crates considers them anything but a *tool to help train the dog.*

You are one of the few people I've heard whose experience with crates has been so negative.

[RottiVet]

I have never crate trained.

I know many people who use them with great success, though.

Just do what works for you.

I have used "a kind of" crate training for new arrivals (fosters) to my home. Sometimes they arrive not housetrained, and must be confined in an area of a room, which is small enough that they won't want to soil it, until they understand. It usually takes about a week for adults. Then, like the rest, they have the run of the house.

As with many things, I think training dogs has a lot to do with expectation. I simply expect a dog to be gentle and obedient, to chew on appropriate items only, to "go" outside, to heel when I say so, etc. It really works for me. Attitude is everything. Even the most distressing situations can be made fun for your dog. (Mine often fall asleep while I scale their teeth, or clip their nails...they're that relaxed.)

If I were to catch a newcomer chewing something he shouldn't, I'd say no and/or squirt with a water pistol and immediately hand him an appropriate chew thing, and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE! In no time they've stopped chewing inappropriate things.

I've never found a real need for a crate. But, some people do. To each his own.

I travel with my dogs quite a bit. Because my dogs are properly trained at home, I have no worries about them damaging anything in a hotel. But, if you did have this concern, I would think a crate would be ideal.

[RottiVet]

Oh...I did want to point out one thing...

...a client recently came in with her puppy. She described how the puppy is doing so well...blah, blah, blah, and is crate trained. (No problem yet.) As she went on to describe the daily routine, I added up the hours in my head. The puppy is in the crate from 9 AM until noon. Then from 1PM until about 5 or 6 PM, then in the crate from 10 PM until 7 AM.

All I could think was "What a shame. That puppy lives in a crate."

[Troy]

I have had wonderful experiences with crate training. It really is a benefit in my eyes.

[FredAl]

From reading your post, I already saw the "flaws" of why crate-training did not work for you. I'll address each one with your quotes:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
I have gotten a puppy (20week old now). I posted a topic on crate training and decided, sure I would give it a whirl. From the day I started it, I knew it wasn't going to work. He started pottying in it (I've had prior posts on this topic), I tried to find a solution, took all of your advise and nothing worked, I mean this dog was just being stubborn-so I thought.</font>

I'm sure you already know that dogs think through association. Your puppy has associated pottying with the crate. I agree with WorkinDogz about questioning where you got the puppy from. At 20 weeks old, he has been "conditioned" to potty in the crate -- a trait inherent in most pet shop puppies or breeders who do not know what they're doing. It is not a matter of stubborness but association and conditioning.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
So, I took him out of the crate but, left the crate inside with the door open (still using it sometimes at this point), he still would potty in the crate, infact, go to the crate just to potty. My house stank of urine so bad. I threw the crate out. No sooner did I throw it out, he began to understand what I was trying to train him to do. He now goes outside to potty and overall is doing much better with general house training.</font>

He kept pottying inside the crate because it was a conditioned behavior associated with the sight and smell of the crate. After you threw the crate out, the association went out with it. Of course the training would be easier because the puppy now has to find another cue to stimulate his pottying. Now, his association with pottying is: smell of grass and dirt, sight and sensation of grass underneath, and everything else outdoors. An example of association on this behavior: if he's used to pottying on grass and dirt, he may have a harder time pottying on concrete.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
I didn't like the crate and I don't believe in crating my dogs. Why should I confine my dog in a tighter place than what he already has to be.</font>

Crate training didn't work for you because you only gave it a feeble attempt on a puppy with an existing problem just to disprove the method. A strong conviction to succeed in training to modify an unwanted behavior is required to accomplish the goal.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
It would have been like a double jail to her. Especially since she wanted to be outside, which most dogs do.</font>

No, it would have been her den where she could feel secure and comfortable. Most dogs want to be with their owners, whether the owner is inside or outside the house. Having a place of their own (den or crate) inside the house makes them, and the owners, feel more secure about each other.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
I spend 8weeks on crate training, which may not seem like long enough, but since I stopped I have seen nothing but, 100% improvment on everything.</font>

If done properly and with conviction, crate-training can be achieved in one week. Since your puppy has already associated his crate as his toilet, you didn't stop the crate-training, you just threw out his toilet and re-focused his behavior on pottying outside. Re-focusing his toilet behavior to the outdoors should have been done first before the crate-training.

All you did was you made him sleep inside his toilet and then threw out the toilet.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
His energy, his attitude, he is easier to work with and is learning exactly the way I want him to, how to live in the house.</font>

See how a little conviction works in training?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
Another reason I am posting this is because I'm sure you have all read the post on the woman who was getting abused and Missy steps in. This brings up another one of my long standing points about crate training. What if Missy was in her crate at the time? Could you imagine what could have happened? </font>

Missy is already an adult dog that can be inside her crate with the door open. Remember, she was a Rescue. Rescue dogs are mostly crate-trained before they go to their foster homes. IF Missy was in her crate at that time, all she had to do was step out through the open doors to do her heroic deed.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
I don't believe crates are a safe place to "store" your dog.</font>

The dog is given a place of its own -- a den where she feels more secure and comfortable. Your belief that it's just a place to "store" the dog is one reason crate-training didn't work for you.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
What if there is a fire? your dog will have no place to go.</font>

If there is a fire, the dog will be trapped inside the house. When the firemen arrive, they will see a confused and frightened rott that may be mistaken as ferocious and may prevent them from doing their job. They will have to call in the police or the animal shelter to get, or get rid, of it before they come in the house with a "fierce rott". If he's crated, the firemen can easily lift the crate and bring the dog out safely.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
Someone breaks in, for one the dog being in the crate will give someone the chance to break in.</font>

Someone who will break into a house with a barking rott (crated or not) will be crazy enough, and armed, to face and fight the rott. Would you sacrifice the life of your rott for a few valuables? Plus, if you trust your rott to be your protector, then he should be old enough to be crate-trained. Therefore, the crate doors would already be open for him to do his job.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LisaMD:
I'm just curious as to how everyone feels about this, anyone who wants to throw in their 2 or 3 cents in, please do.
LisaMD</font>

Well, there's my undervalued 2 cents!

I am not dissuading you from what you believe in; I'm just giving the other members a chance to consider the facts.

[Teena]

After having the heartbreaking loss of a pup going to the bridge from not being crated, NEVER again will i EVER leave a pup uncrated while it is alone.
There are to many dangers out there for a pup to get into. No matter how safe you THINK the area is for him.
I'm for crates 220 %
Teena

I've used some version of crate training to house-break each of my dogs, but then discarded the crates, so my dogs are not really "crate trained" so to speak.
I never felt the need to crate train them, but I do know many people who swear by it: I visited a friend of mine over Christmas who has two dogs about the same ages as mine. Both are crate trained. While I was there, her son was loading up equipment in his truck and he put them in the crates so they wouldn't run outside. Everybody forgot they were in the crates until I walked into the kitchen and said, "Hey, why are your dogs in their crates?" They hadn't made a sound! I was shocked. They really didn't seem to mind it at all. My friend (who spoils her dogs at least as much as I do) usually lets the dogs have the run of the house but I think she puts them there at night or when they leave. Crate training really works for her and her dogs. I think it's a matter of choice and what works for you and your dogs.
That said, I really don't know how you can truly housebreak a dog without crate training them at least for that much, but I am the last to say anything is impossible.



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I love my furry kids!
Soapie and Buddy's Mom

[WorkinDogz]

RottiVet,

Although I understand your perspective; I have to say I have seen the reverse occur with much more frequency.

Until you've seen a puppy with an electrial burn on the roof of his mouth....watch the anguish on the owners faces as they're told to take a good look at the puppy now; because that's as good as he's going to look for a while...if ever...then as the hours pass...their lungs fill with fluid; you blast them with Lasix; make sure the O2 cage is set correctly...wish you could hold the poor little thing but you can't because he needs the O2....and then when all the treatment in the world wasn't enough; all the prayers went unanswered and the puppy loses his fight...you watch the tiny, bagged body being carried "home"...then tell me crates are unnecessary and the "poor puppy" suffers from being in one.

Yes indeed....uncrated, unsupervised puppies are MUCH better off. I think not.

QUALITY of time spent outside of the crate is a much greater positive than a few more than "acceptable" hours kept safe in a crate when they can't be watched.

Again; no one is saying you're evil or unfit as an owner if you don't crate train....but for heavens sake; they aren't a mid-evil torchure device either!

[sumo]

i don't know what i'd do without a crate...all of our dogs were crate trained...never had a dog ever pee in the crate...house training never takes more than a couple weeks in my home...perhaps you are using the crate wrong?...