OK, he is 18 months old now...

[Rocky]

OK I have a question...
We had a trainer come out for 6 weekly one hour sessions with our boy when he was about 4mo. (You can see him in my check out my boy post in chit-chat) The trainer knew Ed Frawley, and worked with our local city and county PD. He was pretty excited about Rocky's potential, he said that what comes of that potential depends on me. I have since studied my butt off (Schutzhund Obedience, Training in drive), and worked with Rocky frequently in obedience while trying to exploit his high drives. (The trainer called him "really drivey") He responds excellently when I have a toy/treat with me, heeling perfectly and being HIGHLY attentive (he even struts a little). But my dilemma is that when I am without treats, he only works so well about 75% of the time. This is worst when he is distracted. I understand that now is when I must correct him because he knows what I want and doesnt do it IMMEDIATELY. I have tried a choke collar, but had no effect other than him choking himself. I now have a prong collar, but it seems to have VERY little corrective qualities. The main effect is after he pulls against it for a few seconds, he shakes his neck. Can his pain threshhold be THAT high? how else can I offer corrections? I would prefer the most humane method possible. Sorry so long, but I ramble when I'm tired.

[Carol Burke]

Are you placing the prong correctly? If not it is useless. It needs to be high on the neck and snug.

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Carol
Darrlburg Rottweilers

[Judi W]

It takes a tremendous amount of energy on the handler's part to teach the dog to work and maintain animated and attentive heeling. You are the bait so to speak, in that the handler must be animated, energetic, put bounce in your step, use your voice to urge the dog on and keep those sessions very short. If the dog will give you 5 minutes of this type of work, then stop and do some retrieves and long fast fun recalls, play some tug, then you can go back to a bit of heeling. This type of work, if done well, is very demanding on the dog and you must keep that in mind. Put yourself next to a friend and see how long you can spring along, looking up into their face and maintain that. Then keeping that in mind, work your dog for maximum joy and attention. Remember you are training, not trialing. Take you left hand and give a good pat on the dog's outside shoulder with a "good dog" while you move. Occasionally do a happy release while moving not just from a final halt and sit. Use yourself as the motivator.

[This message has been edited by Judi W (edited January 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Judi W (edited January 20, 2001).]

[Storm]

Your rottie is still "young". Develope the drive that he has. Be careful not to kill it with to much compulsion. When doing heel work etc. prolong the reward, more and more as you progress. His attention span should develope as you progress, anticipating the reward. Slowly you are "weaning" him of the toy or reward used to stimulate his prey drive. This takes time and doesn't happen overnight. Also try ascimilating the possesion of a toy poise or what ever you are using with a clunched hand etc. make the dog think, hey his got something there. Also remember to reward the dog, at what ever stage you intend, only when he is giving you his attention, make it clear to him.

[Rocky]

His collar sits about 2/3 of the way between his shoulder and ears, is this correct? He really seems to have an incredibly high pain threshold. But now I am wondering if I should still be working with treat/tug only, and am being impatient with his consistency. I understand about keeping the sessions short, they are never longer than 5-10 minutes and I always leave him wanting more. We also end with a huge release and reward, whether it be the recall game or treats, and the occasional heaping of praise only reward. I feel like I am confusing/tricking him if I simulate having the tug, then don't. Is this ok as a way to bring along consistency, or am I confusing him? He is a fantastic dog, and has huge potential, I only wish there was a schutzhund club nearby. Oh well, I need to perfect obedience before I take him any further anyway. Thanks all for all opinions and advice, it is greatly appreciated.

[Storm]

Yes use the dog's drive to train! As Judi W posted " you are training not trialing" try not to get impatient you will need lots of patience. Training the dog without stimulating that drive will probably result in having to use compulsion alone, this is not fun for the dog, make it fun for him. Training is all about "tricking" the dog to get it to do what you want, this is different to confusing the dog. Use the toy/tug to stimulate that drive, then as mentioned eg. heel work, dog sitting at heel you got his attention, reward. Next, three or four steps heeling, dog's attention, reward. Next, six or seven steps, reward. Incorparate about turns etc. when dog is there, correct, attentive reward. Always reward when the dog is giving attention. So you progress untill eventually you can walk whatever distance and your dog is there attentive, working for the reward. The reward becoming less conspicuous as you proceed, eventually keeping the reward under your right arm for example. Should the dog loose attention keep walking as soon as he gives attention, reward. If the drive is very high you can use compulsion to get him into possition, once in possition and he gives you what you want, reward quickly so the dog gets the idea.

[Judi W]

How you wean the dog from a motivator will vary with the individual dog. I am working a two year old male right now that busts his heart out and does awesome work for a big smile and the words "goooood boy". I don't even carry anything. When we stop for our reward we run and get it. He is so much fun to be with I can hardly contain myself. Now, I make sure that I am "so much fun to be with" for him also. This requires a lot of energy on my part as I generate towards him what I want him to give to me.

If you are carrying your motivation whether it is a toy or food, that is not a problem at all. What you are doing is establishing a habit on the dog's part and a conditioned response. (remember Psyc 101) That is why Storm is telling you how to make that reward variable over time.

The corrections from a pinch are simply to be able to give a firmer correction, not to induce pain. (the collar should be at the top of the neck by the way) Attempting to use pain on a hard dog simply teaches them to work through a higher and higher level of pain. Then where are you going to go? Using pain on a softer dog will put them into avoidance. Neither is good.

Six weeks is nothing in the way of having formal training. That just barely gets you started. Get into a class of some sort. No matter how long a person has been training or how many dogs, we can all always use a good coach. The instructor can see and suggest things that you cannot see youself and it is stimulating and motivating to be working around others.

[Rocky]

He is very attentive, when we work heeling, we go for a solid 30 seconds to a minute of constant challenges sucha s me changing speed, stopping from a sprint etc...I am incorporating obstructions to get him to work harder at also. He loves it, and I beleive it helps in building his drive. I could not afford the trainer for an extnded amount of time (he was expensive, but highly recommended), but he and I knew this from the beginning and built what I feel was an excellent foundation for me to build on. Thanks again for all opinions and advice, I HIGHLY value the input I get from so many knowledgeable people.