Training Working Dogs Using Motivation NOT Compulsion

[Leader]

Vicki,
I haven't had time to read the two pieces but here in France at the clubs I know personally they use motivation for dogs ...a ball, treats or just LOTYS of praise to get dogs to do what is required; Sometimes, when a dog KNOWS what he should do and doesn't (as in halt when he's attcked or returning from an attack when 'called or whistled) firmer methods are used, but ONLY after a dog has learned and learned well what he should do and enjoys doing it.

Will try to read the two pieces tonight or tomorrow and thanks, ;)

[Leader]

P.S. my 5 year old rott haés gotten up to ring II in French ringsport; I've more or less decided to stop competing with him as I'm going to have to change clubs. A matter of not seeing eye to eye with the helper about the way he can treat ME! It's a shame because he's really good.

[WorkinDogz]

Beaderbaby,

It seems that the same training crosses many different cultures :)

Quite honestly; I don't know of many people who are successful in sport (be it SchH or Ring) that lay their foundation using compulsion. I know I don't :D

"Some" people seem to think that a dog should not ever receive a physical correction however. They tend to confuse the final stage of training---where the dog knows what is expected of them; yet chooses to be disobedient (by a faulty heel position, breaking attention, breaking a position.....etc) The "polishing phase" as we like to call it...is where the dog; who has the solid, motivationally layed foundation receives a correction for a disobedience; not a mistake.

There is a difference...

[suzanne611]

Very good articles Vicki,thank you for always keeping us posted on newer ways of viewing our pups.

[Leader]

Ain't that the truth, WorkinDogz! I hate to see the ones who are really tremendously hard on their dogs when they're just puppies! Here the 'serious' handlers start complusion training with puppies...I've seen them 'hang' their dogs just to make sure the dogs knew who was the boss....Ugh!
I'd rather not train my dog under those conditions. although I DO agree that in the polishing stages, (or finishing school?) the dog needs some 'hard' work.
;)
Nice to know I'm not alone!
Thanx :D

[WorkinDogz]

Beaderbaby,

I hope you do load the web sites! The one in particular is an interview with Sheila Booth...she wrote (in cooperation with Gottfried Dildei) the book "Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive".

This is an EXCELLENT book---and contains a chapter about introducing corrections...when it's time.

Sheila very correctly points out that you'll get approximately 70% accuracy with "motivation-only". Compulsion cleans up the rest and THAT separates the Excellent; reliable obedience dogs from the mediocure ones.

That correction for breaking the down when the dog KNOWS to not move; but opts to do it anyway IMHO is how you are able to down him; at a distance when he's hot on the heels of a cat....or squirrel...or (heaven forbid) child.

Reprocussions....every dog needs to know there WILL be some.

[valdes43]

Super Articles! ;)

[Mick Trainer]

Great thread Vicki,

Great responces WorkinDogz.

I too must concur with WD in regards "Shutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive". It is an excellent book that can lay the foundation to people looking for methods that work with the dogs natural drives and not against them. All should read.

Mick.

[Storm]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:
<STRONG>Beaderbaby,

"Some" people seem to think that a dog should not ever receive a physical correction however. They tend to confuse the final stage of training---where the dog knows what is expected of them; yet chooses to be disobedient (by a faulty heel position, breaking attention, breaking a position.....etc) The "polishing phase" as we like to call it...is where the dog; who has the solid, motivationally layed foundation receives a correction for a disobedience; not a mistake.

There is a difference...</STRONG>

I would think only a BRAINLESS IDIOT would base his training on compulsion, compulsion and compulsion alone! However as WorkinDogz pointed out, it does have its place in dog training.

[nick teifke]

I know several people who train using tons of compulsion, and alot of them compete at the National level. I've been to their club and watched them trained, and the first time I seen it, I thought geez, is this what you have to do to train on a National level???
I dont agree with the way they train, or treat their dogs for that matter, but I wouldnt sit there and argue their scores with them.
I think the key is finding the right mixture of compulsion and motivation, with the mixture leaning much more towards motivation in a young dog. I also believe compulsion has its place, just like I believe corrections with a prong collar are sometimes needed on some dogs, and in extreme cases I believe hanging a dog has its place. It really boils down to personal preference and how I choose to train my dogs. If Im successful, then Im successful. If Im not, then I will try something else until I am :)

[ April 21, 2001: Message edited by: nick teifke ]

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:
<STRONG>... The one in particular is an interview with Sheila Booth...she wrote (in cooperation with Gottfried Dildei) the book "Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive".

This is an EXCELLENT book---and contains a chapter about introducing corrections...when it's time.

Sheila very correctly points out that you'll get approximately 70% accuracy with "motivation-only". Compulsion cleans up the rest and THAT separates the Excellent; reliable obedience dogs from the mediocure ones.

That correction for breaking the down when the dog KNOWS to not move; but opts to do it anyway IMHO is how you are able to down him; at a distance when he's hot on the heels of a cat....or squirrel...or (heaven forbid) child.

Reprocussions....every dog needs to know there WILL be some.</STRONG>

I concur... and that was long before the "clash"! :p :D

[Storm]

Originally posted by nick teifke:
<STRONG>It really boils down to personal preference and how I choose to train my dogs. If Im successful, then Im successful. If Im not, then I will try something else until I am :)

[ April 21, 2001: Message edited by: nick teifke ]</STRONG>

Sure some people have achieved "success" with compulsion based training, however by having the "correct mixture" as you put it, IMO training is better, there is more progress, it is less stressful, plain and simply the dog wants to work because the motivation is there. It sure is a matter of personal preference however I feel sorry for the so called "compulsion trainers" and more so for the dogs who have to endure all the preferred compulsion methods. Whack, whack, WHACK! :(

[WorkinDogz]

Nick,

It is a matter of preference; no question about it.

Those heavy compulsion hitters also have a constant worry...the dog shutting down. Every single dog has their "breaking point". The titration level (what it takes to bring a dog back *up* after a correction brings him *down*) tells you where that breaking point is...and more than a few of those heavy-handed trainers have crossed that line; and then you're in a REAL PICKLE.

I also know of many trainers who post 100's in tracking....compulsion on the track; forced tracking...whatever you prefer to call it... Ever see a dog refuse to leave the scent pad? I sure have. And if you look at the scorebook...100, 100, 100, 0, 99, 0, 100, 0..... sorry...I'll take CONSISTANT 94's ANY DAY and not opt to do forced tracking.

In obedience...YOU CAN pick out every single dog who was pressure-trained. They're attitude is NOT there.....and their movements tend to be "sluggish" and present a bad picture to me. Yes; they are correct...they are fast...but they DO NOT present the picture of a HAPPY WORKING DOG that I want.

Happy doing the work doesn't mean you sacrifice CORRECTNESS..

[Vicki]

One must not confuse Ms. Booth's earlier works with her work now. Her title Purely Positive Training means just that. She has turned away from complusion. As she explains in the introduction to Purely Postive Training:

Those of us using gravitating toward positive training were already using food, despite those folks who told us it was "bribery", and that the dogs wouldn't work when we didn't have the food. How were we ever led to believe all that stuff?

We had also learned to use toys and games as rewards so our dogs loved training. But we still bought into the premise that eventually you had to use corrections or the dog would never be reliable "in the ring." We compromised.

But Patty refused to compromise. She threw away her prong collar and began training without a leash. She substituted "cookie power" and brain-power for compulsion. She decided if she had to hurt her dog to do it, then it wasn't worth it. With that decision, she opened the door for the stampeding herd of folks behind her who wanted to use their brains instead of their brawn to train their beloved dogs. . . .

Today, I'm proud to be a standard bearer for the quiet revolution in positive training.

If you read on to Chapter 9 of the book, the chapter title is "The Corrections". Here is what she has to say:

For now, just put off any corrections. You can always get around to them later, if you so choose.

Today, put them off for just one more training session. Keep on showing the dog the way, rewarding the behavior you do want. Teach him just a little longer. Be sure he really understands what you want. Trust that he always gives you his best.

That's the extent of her "corrections" section, the remainder of the two page chapter is an illustrative story of how a K-9 handler did not "correct" his dog having a having a bad day, and how the handler felt good about not issuing the "correction".

The quotes which grace the heading of the chapter titled Corrections are these:

"Violence begins where knowledge ends." Unknown

"No human being has the right to say to (an animal), you must or I'll hurt you." Monty Roberts

Make no mistake, Ms. Booth has evolved into a Purely Postive Trainer, who no longer buys into the premise that one must use compulsion to train a dog. She no longer uses compulsion to "polish", and as she points out in her interview, it certainly is possible to train working dogs to win using Purely Positive Training.

[ April 21, 2001: Message edited by: Vicki Magnus ]

[ April 21, 2001: Message edited by: Vicki Magnus ]

[Leader]

How I agree! I'd rather not have to hurt my dog when training than hurt him and win. Sure when he's done something wrong because of ATTITUDE although he enjoys the work then I do get angry and forceful. But only because he KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS. When he stopped enjoying the ring, I stopped doing the ring. We've just started back and he's as enthusiastic as could be. It's great to see him HAPPY and EXCITED to work and work correctly. I'll correct him if he needs it...but he has lean=rned and knows now. Compulsion training is not for me...Correction is if necessary and not for pleasure!

Bye the way I've read those 2 articles, downloaded them and am editing them so I can 'translate' for some of my French colleagues.

Thanks so much again, Vicki :D