Training Working Dogs Using Motivation NOT Compulsion

[Mick Trainer]

I must agree that Ms Booth has moved away from corrections and that it is an admirable thing to have done and I even applaud her more so for always evolving her training system. Any decent trainer will always have this as one of their goals.

However without wishing to take anything away from her or such techniques, as a trainer I must also look beyond such things and evaluate a technique also based on "how easy is the technique to teach and for average pet owners to follow?". Many, many training techniques fall down not when done by knowledgable experienced people but when applied by people who have little idea as too what they are doing. Ms Booths techniques I feel are better aimed to a large extent for people who know a little in regards behavior (although others will argue differently) already. I myself have techniques that only I will at present apply, techniques I will allow my trainers to apply to their dogs and techniques we teach our customers.

Some would rightly say "why?" The answer is because some techniques written about and taught every day (ones I have come up with myself fit into this catagory) have a larger fail rate than they do have success rate. This may be a problem with teaching such a technique, a problem with timing or what ever, but if you fail even in 10% of cases little alone more than you succeed then the technique needs some work. When looking at this point one must take into account the mentality/knowledge/time constraints/patients etc of the average customer. I will not talk with knowledge Ms Booth's customers as I would not have a clue (and also because she is talking about training Working Dogs) but I can talk about mine. Some will bring a puppy along and teach correctly from the start (this is easy and very much motivational) other do not and will bring an adult dog that already has many problems. All want results yesterday, and most will not give something a second go. I have no problem seeing a problem form in a dogs training and going backwards to cure it. Most customers that wish to train a pet to heal, sit and recall will not. So leaving corrections to later and re-teaching whilst in principle is correct, will lead most people to give up. Some would say (and they may be right) that "these people should not have nor train a dog". The fact is people like this do and who will ultimately suffer for this?

Now I am not for one minute saying Ms Booth's techniques do not work (I too seek a system where corrections are a thing of the past) but simply that we must not jump to the conclusion that a system without corrections is better simply based on that fact. A truly sound training system must be workable by all who attempt it.

I am also not saying that we all should not attempt to achieve the same results as Ms Booth has. I for one constantly work with my trainers to develop more dog friendly techniques, but still use corrections when necessary. I have fixed over 400 dogs that have bitten their owners, hundreds more who were aggressive towards other people, many many more who were dog aggressive. I for one do not feel I could have done this without the use of negative stimulus and corrections. I will keep looking for a better way until I stop training dogs but simply giving corrections does not make a system wrong or bad.

Monte Roberts (a horse trainer (prey animal)) says "No human has the right to say (to an animal) you must or I will hurt you". This in it's self is a lovely statement. But society dictates that "we do have the right to Kill an animal that is out of line". Negative stimulus has saved many a dog. Ask yourself which is better. I have the "pleasure" every day to see and train dogs that have developed behavioral problems due to what I have spoken about above, were a simple change to the technique would have avoided such things. I often argue "that for the one person who rings me and retains my service to fix their dog, another 10 do not". They have tried to train their dog and it has failed. They will not try again. Of course not all of these are due to the technique not working.

Motivation only techniques have their short comings too. Using such techniques only, will leave you with few strings to your bow. It may be enough for some, but leave others way short.

Mick.

[WorkinDogz]

Exceptional post Mr. Trainer. Exceptional.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Mick Trainer:
<STRONG>... I for one constantly work with my trainers to develop more dog friendly techniques, but still use corrections when necessary. I have fixed over 400 dogs that have bitten their owners, hundreds more who were aggressive towards other people, many many more who were dog aggressive. I for one do not feel I could have done this without the use of negative stimulus and corrections. I will keep looking for a better way until I stop training dogs but simply giving corrections does not make a system wrong or bad.

...Motivation only techniques have their short comings too. Using such techniques only, will leave you with few strings to your bow. It may be enough for some, but leave others way short.</STRONG>

Fantastic reply! Particularly the above two excerpts ;) :)

[Vicki]

Michael, that's my point, that the fault lies not in the dogs but in ourselves. I posted those links to counter those who insist there is no way to train a high drive working dog using positive methods. Those are success stories from trainers who are managing to do just that. Sheila Booth, Jean Donaldson, Turid Rugaas, these trainers are lighting the way to show us less talented trainers what is possible. I am not fully there yet, but I don't blame the dogs that I cannot find a better way than barrier training; I recognize that I need more training and need to keep searching for help in that area.

Machiavelli said "Know a Prince by his Lieutenants". The goals one chooses for the end of the journey will determine the path. Obviously some people here are adamant that it is not possible to train without compulsion, and nothing will ever change their views. This is directed at those who may not be aware of those trainers achieving success, even in competition, using positive methods. I hope those with open minds will at least consider and explore positive training options, and not simply accept the "it can't be done" refrain.

[ April 23, 2001: Message edited by: Vicki Magnus ]

[ April 23, 2001: Message edited by: Vicki Magnus ]

[German Vanegas]

If only dog breeds would come with ONE standard temperament, drives and nerves, then there could be ONE way to train dogs... However, since that is just unrealistic, dog training has to be adjusted and accommodated to the individual given dog. Because, as we all know, not even two Rottweilers are alike... So, is a hard dog or a soft dog?... A confident dog or an aprehensive dog?... A high driven dog or a low drive dog?... A fearless dog or a fearful dog?... And so forth and so on. See? It is not that simple, as in "there is one way to do it and no other way". Neither should be about "my way or no way", but about what really works for you, in the form of proven-tested individual methods... You know, "so many dogs, so little time" ;) :)

[Mick Trainer]

Vicki,

You know me well enough to know that I too think that there is a better way and that time etc will lead me too it. If I did not think this I would walk away from train today.

I too just wanted people to open their eyes in both directions and to not think that there is only one "correct" way. Anybody with any real training experience will tell you that there is not. There is opinion, but not fact.

We should be looking forward, to a gentler way but we should not abandon what we have done before to search for this way. I will never give up my beliefs of technique being easy for all to learn, working in real life as well as in the competition ring (for the record I do not see the ring as the ultimate test for a technique) etc, etc, etc. I wish to develop a system that retains all this as well as being as gentle as possible. I will not leave these things I hold to be important so that I am gentler. When I can cure intense aggression with such a total gentle technique I will do so and I will say I am a success.

As you know Turid Ruggas says herself that what she teaches has limitations and that not all problems can be solved by the use of her techniques. Having a good understanding of such techniques gives you strings to your bow. You can not have too much knowledge.

I will never disagree with you that the limitations lie with us, not the dogs. We bring a pack predatory animal into our lives and expect it to live by our rules. This shows a very real limitation in our thought process. However we must also see the world for what it is and offer solutions to help out these people (and ultimatly their dogs) in the form of techniques that are do-able for people who wish to do nothing more than train their dog to be a good pets, but who have real limitations as to the time they have, and priority their dogs play in their lives etc. A technique that takes to long to teach will ultimatley be discarded by the majority of dog owners. Sad but true.

Mick.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Mick Trainer:
<STRONG>... I will never disagree with you that the limitations lie with us, not the dogs. We bring a pack predatory animal into our lives and expect it to live by our rules. This shows a very real limitation in our thought process...</STRONG>

You know the old proverb: "Treat your dog like a human and he will treat you like a dog. Treat your dog like a dog and he will treat you like a human." ;) :p