E Collar

[jamiesonyx]

I recently visited a dog training facility and they offered training classes using the E-Collar.
Is this the new way to train dogs now? If so, what collar would work best for a Rottweiler who will weigh about 90-100lbs when full grown?
Thanks in advance.

[hmeadq]

I would never start with an E-collar.

A Rotty that is 90-100lbs fully grown needs it no more then a Pom. A regular class with a focus on positive reinforcement should work fine. If you work with him regurally a flat collar is probably all you will need. If you need more their are heavier guns. I LOVED my gental Leader in Beginners Obedience. Now we use a choke, if we ever have to we'll switch to a prong, but why start at the top when you have tried nothing else first?

Some people claim e-Collars train faster. But fast is not the goal of my training...

[jamiesonyx]

I have already tried the choker. We HAD to put that on her because she would pull so much that her normal collar would end up sliding off. (Not good)
Also, I want to use this (the E Collar) to teach her to stay and go to her place when I tell her too. I have tried the "positive reinforcement" with things like "good dog", petting, and even treats. It works sometimes but her attention span is very very short. I took her to an obendience class (demo) on Friday night and the trainer worked with her for 10 minutes using the E Collar. She didn't cry, whine, or bark not even once. She just moved toward the trainer and did what was asked. I also felt the collar on my hand first and the pulse that I felt was not painful.
I want.....no, I need a dog that is well behaved. We have just installed pool in our back yard and we will be having many people over this next summer. I need Onyx to be a good girl and listen to us when we tell her something. The traditional training methods are not working. She is very stubborn.

[rottnelmo]

Originally Posted by jamiesonyx

I recently visited a dog training facility and they offered training classes using the E-Collar.
Is this the new way to train dogs now? If so, what collar would work best for a Rottweiler who will weigh about 90-100lbs when full grown?
Thanks in advance.

No, it is not a new way...it is a very old way. Mainly labs and retreiving dogs are trained using the e-collar.

I personally have used it and see its benefits, however, I would not use to actually train a dog...I have only used one to polish or perfect a behavior.

Have you tried using a premier or lupine collar (they are martingale type collars) so that the dog cannot pull out of it?

I have a very stubborn very smart pit pup that I have had huge success using positive reinforcement with, food and a clicker (this guy LOVES the clicker).

If you are going to go the route of e-collar training, please make sure the trainer is very experienced and you arent just out for a quick fix...to get a dog fully trained and reliable takes YEARS, not months.

[hmeadq]

Originally Posted by jamiesonyx

I have already tried the choker. We HAD to put that on her because she would pull so much that her normal collar would end up sliding off. (Not good)
Also, I want to use this (the E Collar) to teach her to stay and go to her place when I tell her too. I have tried the "positive reinforcement" with things like "good dog", petting, and even treats. It works sometimes but her attention span is very very short. I took her to an obendience class (demo) on Friday night and the trainer worked with her for 10 minutes using the E Collar. She didn't cry, whine, or bark not even once. She just moved toward the trainer and did what was asked. I also felt the collar on my hand first and the pulse that I felt was not painful.
I want.....no, I need a dog that is well behaved. We have just installed pool in our back yard and we will be having many people over this next summer. I need Onyx to be a good girl and listen to us when we tell her something. The traditional training methods are not working. She is very stubborn.

How long have you had her in training? My dog did Basic twice, Intermediate twice, Advanced twice and is not near done. He is VERY stubborn, but is getting better month by month.

I am not saying the eCollar is wrong, but often it is used as a subsititute for real training. We used an eCollar on our Doc for inapproporate barking and he learned VERY quickly what the collar did, even with careful use.

Rottys are smart. Yours will probably quickly learn that he only needs to listen when the collar is on. Or what if the remote is not in your hand?

The other thing is that my boy will ALWAYS do what the trainer wants, even without an ecollar. The test is will they do it for you?

You asked for opinions.

[hmeadq]

Originally Posted by rottnelmo

Have you tried using a premier or lupine collar (they are martingale type collars) so that the dog cannot pull out of it?

We use this collar as our "everyday" collar and it is great, Doc to learned how to pull out of his regular collar...

[jamiesonyx]

Oh, I totally understand and that is why I posted the question. I want people to be brutally honest with me (if that's what it takes).

Also, Onyx has not been through any "formal" training yet. I have been training her at home with praise. She knows how to do the regular things like sit, lay down, etc.
She recently nipped at a neighborhood child a few weeks ago. When I posted about that situation, everyone told me to take her to obedience classes asap. So that is what I did and this is what I was told.

When the trainer put the collar on HER dogs, they were so excited because they knew they were going to perform. And she also did a lot of petting and "good girls" while working with the collar. I just don't see that big of a deal with trying it. I would NEVER intentionally hurt my dog. That is why the DOGTRA 200NCP was the one I was going to buy. It has a pretty good span so to not hurt the dog.

[hmeadq]

I didn't mean to imply that you would hurt your dog. I'm sure you care very much. Your posting shows you do.

I think you will find that many people here would recommend trying other training before you resort to am e-collar.

There are many diffrent trainers. Ask your trainer how long she has been training and what titles she has put on dogs. This is important not because you want to but because it shows a level of ability and commimitment.

Also, don't think that because positive reinforcment did not work at home does not mean it would not work in classes. It is really amazing how much there is to know and learn and how much a good trainer will help. I have been amazed at how much higher my expectations are after training and how easily Doc lives up to those expectations... Good luck.

[spidey]

have tried the "positive reinforcement" with things like "good dog", petting, and even treats. It works sometimes but her attention span is very very short

I have to say that the above doesn't sound like you've actually got an organized plan for training your dog ("good dog, petting and even treats" doesn't sound much like positive reinforcement training - what reward criteria did you use? How did you get the dog to demonstrate the behaviour in the first place? etc. Praise and petting just aren't that reinforcing to most dogs, especially when they're first learning - would you work 40 hours a week for an occasional "good job", or do you expect an actual paycheck?). Rather than trying all kinds of things and looking at what equipment to use when what you're using doesn't work right away, it might be an idea to do some research and formulate a solid training plan and work from that. With a young puppy, no matter how you intend to train eventually, it should be fun, positive, VERY rewarding ("even treats" tells me that you don't have a very high opinion of food rewards in training, which is a shame, since they work extremely well) and you need to keep your expectations very low and build gradually, puppies sometimes learn slowly, they take a long time to actually understand things until they're mentally mature, and I just think it's not a good idea to be thinking about using an e-collar without taking these things into account. Patience, I don't know how old your dog is but it sounds like she's a puppy! I would not be very impressed with a trainer who used an e-collar on a young puppy.

There's nothing wrong with keeping an open mind and being willing to find what works for a given dog, but I think the issue here has more to do with your training plan and knowledge base than it does what collar you use. In other words, I think you're approaching this backwards. The dog needs to learn what you want before you start correcting it for not doing what you want.

[jamiesonyx]

In all fairness, how do you think my dog (almost 6 months old) knows how to sit, lay down, shake, go outside to potty, etc? I didn't teach her these things by occasionally petting her or telling her "good girl".
This dog is very very rough. She is rough with my kids and with some adults. She has even bitten a child down the street. I am NOT just trying to teach her "tricks" rather than to teach her obedience. She needs to know when I tell her "Down" that she needs to get down. She needs to NOT run out of the door when it is opened and run around the neighborhood.
These are the reasons the eCollar was looking like a better option. Not to mention, I tried it on myself before I had the trainer put it on my dog. I don't understand why so many people are against them if they don't actually HURT the dog. My Shi tzu hurts my Rotty more than that collar did.
No, I do not like my dog to get treats as a reward for doing as I say. I think that causes lots of dogs to get fat. Especially if you work with them several times a day. I would rather my dog want to obey me because she knows she will get positive reinforcement rather than a treat. I give her one treat after each training sesson at home. I think that is sufficient.
I appreciate your opinion and your comments. I am taking everything into consideration before I make a final decision.

[spidey]

No, I do not like my dog to get treats as a reward for doing as I say. I think that causes lots of dogs to get fat.

Not if you adjust their other food accordingly, as you should. I assure you, I train with treats every single day (along with tug and fetch and other things my dog finds reinforcing), and my dog is extremely lean. Dogs only get fat when they consume more calories than they burn, and there's no reason you can just use some of the dog's daily food ration as training treats if need be (and if your dog likes the food enough).

Something is only reinforcing if the dog finds it so - your praise might be nice, but for most dogs it doesn't really count as all that reinforcing, and neither does a single treat at the end of a training session. It's not positive reinforcement just because it's praise (or treats, or pats), and it's not positive reinforcement just because it's not punishment or just because you say your dog should find it reinforcing. Something is only positive reinforcement if it causes the dog to be more likely to repeat the behaviour in order to get more of the reinforcer. Food is an incredibly powerful motivator, which is why so many professional animal trainers of ALL species use it. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face to rule it out as an actual training device, especially with a puppy.

Also, given the issues you cite as possible reasons for the e-collar, there are some very serious things you should consider. A dog who is very stimulated may well seriously injure someone if they're hurt while they're very aroused - in other words, if your dog is in prey drive because of screaming kids running around, and you zap the dog for not listening to you, you might see what's called "displaced aggression", which is where the dog reacts to the pain by behaving aggressively to whatever's closest, this could easily be a child. If you do a search for e collars here you'll find a thread in which exactly this happened. Yes, it was because of chronic misuse of an e-collar, but this is something you should be aware of - you could be making it MORE likely that your dog will harm someone instead of less.

I seriously think that this is just a management issue at this stage - if you know your dog is rough with people, she should be on-lead whenever she's not in her crate, until you have trained and socialized her enough that she knows how to handle being around people properly. I don't think you need an e-collar, I think you need better management, more training (with lots of proofing) and more socialization. A six month old puppy is a puppy, you cannot and should not expect total obedience from a dog of this age, no matter how much training you have done, your dog's mind is immature, and there simply hasn't been enough time yet for you to have proofed your training as much as it needs to be proofed for you to consider your dog trained. Your dog doesn't down the second you tell her to every time because she's a) a baby and b) you haven't proofed the down enough yet, so you get around any danger to other people by keeping physical control of her with a collar and lead and continue your training.

The issue isn't that the e-collar hurts or doesn't (and they definitely can), it's the thinking behind their use in this particular situation.

[brunie's mom]

You have been given good advice.
A 6 month old puppy that has never been to a formal obedience class should not be using an e collar.

Find a different obedience class or training club....a place that teaches positively and with rewards.
The training you have done has not worked...and you need help. She should not be out of control, she should not be nipping people. She needs to understand the command and to be able to do it under distractions. This takes time and training....not something that happens overnight or with a zap of an e-collar.

I would rethink your ideas of food motivation and training. Most trainers on this board recommend teaching a dog this way...trainers and dog owner's that have many obedience titles on their dogs.

You do not need to keep feeding the treats forever. Once the dog knows the command and understands the command...then you can taper the food rewards off...or give them randomly along with praise.
Nothing makes a dog learn a new command faster than food.

It's obvious that what you are doing is not working....maybe it's time you start listening???

Gina

[ElsasFamily]

I wanted to add a few things to what has already been said.

We will most all agree that Rotties are smart. I know for a fact that Elsa can tell the difference between her pronged collar and her flat collar. You need to have obedience from your dog first and foremost. What happens when your dog isn't wearing the E-collar and you are unable to correct the behavior because she has wised up to the collar?

My father in law trains bird dogs for hunting. He uses electric collars to fine tune the dogs’ behavior. It works well for him. But the dogs already obey him first, and know the commands he is giving before he brings out the "big gun"

Just something for you to think about. E-Collars will only work when the dog is wearing it. And they will know when they aren’t. You need to establish leadership first. And at 6months she is still mouldable.

Are you saying that the trainer was ready to begin training with the e-collar first? I would find another trainer if that is the fact.

~Kim

[Imre0538]

Originally Posted by rottnelmo

No, it is not a new way...it is a very old way. Mainly labs and retreiving dogs are trained using the e-collar.

I personally have used it and see its benefits, however, I would not use to actually train a dog...I have only used one to polish or perfect a behavior.

If you are going to go the route of e-collar training, please make sure the trainer is very experienced and you arent just out for a quick fix...to get a dog fully trained and reliable takes YEARS, not months.

I agree..........
I use an e-collar on my female to perfect off-leash work......after 1 year of basic and advanced obedience.
WHY are you using a flat collar to train her anyway??
Was the Choke Chain in the correct position ?(the METAL one not the martingale)
Have you tried a prong collar, it is usually enough to make a believer out of most dogs..........

I believe that an E-collar is used most effectively and you get the most out of it when the dog KNOWS the commands first using other methods of correction and then perfect them with the e-collar.

And just because you are going to have people over next summer does not mean that you have to rush her training.........buy a crate guy.....you can crate her while company is over. (and it's probably best around alot of people anyway)
And you may not really want her around that much screaming, laughing, running people anyway until she can do a bon-i-fide down/stay and you never know what she may percieve as a threat.
Oh, and by the way if you insist on using an e-collar for her training just know that they run about $200 for a good one, and sometimes if you don't put the collar on while standing behing the dog (so they can't see what the collar looks like) then they usually know when it is on and when it is off......the whole point of an e-collar (in my opinion) is to make the correction seem like it is coming from god.

[jamiesonyx]

When your trying to teach your dog to not jump on people and to stay off the furniture in the house, usually you (well I don't) have the choke collar or the leash on the dog. If I had the eCollar I could correct her in the house without the choker and/or the leash.
She works fine with the choke collar and the leash while walking right now. That is not why I want to buy the eCollar.
She is doing well with the STAY command, I just need to perfect it a little better now. She's a good dog. I want her to be able to share a nice day in the summer with my family and friends by the pool. She derserves that and doesn't deserve to be in a crate all day if we are home. I want her to be a part of the family and if an eCollar is going to help her get there, then I am willing to TRY it.
I appreciate your advice.