Auto-correction / positioning

[Stubby]

I'm working with a Rott who is quite "all that" and am teaching the heel position.
With my boy TJ when I taught him Foos for ScH, I used a quick poke in the lower rib are to get him to learn to auto correct if he didn't position correctly.

This girl is more liable to turn around on me and snack on my arm if I do that, and so need another method to teach her. I've been working on "get in" by shifting a little away from her, and telling her to get in while gently pushing her butt in to me, and then reward.
Not sure if this will get me the desired result however.

Suggestions?

[Ilovemypuppy]

Hi there :o)) I can tell you what I did to get Bailey to learn to sit in closer and that was to train along a wall or other obstacle . Unlike the girl you are working with...a rib poke would discourage and cause my girl to shut down. I want her happy and animated, so I do not use physical corrections with her.

When heeling up the middle of the room or field, I set up pylons to heel close to. It became automatic after a while and I used lavish praise for every correct sit and ignored the crooked ones.

[Stubby]

Hi there, back!! LOL

Jory, that works for getting the position correct for when they sit after heeling for sure, but, what about when you do like a 1/4 turn to the right for example. How do you get her to scooch her butt back into position?

What I'm trying to achieve is to get her to move back into heel position if *I* move out of position.

[Ilovemypuppy]

OK...what I would do is practice one step, sit, two steps, sit, one step sit, until she is doing them quickly and in position; then one step, sit,(you) turn to face her, back up one step, sit, back up two steps, sit and then mix these up in quick succession. Then go into a corner with one step, sit..quarter turn sit. I would still use a 'rail' to guide her so she understands the position.

What is her motivator ?

[alexav]

If you are having to teach a "scoot closer" cue, it means you haven't taught the ready or the heel properly in the first place. Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine.
Can't ask a dog to scoot closer at a trial now, can you?

Are you familiar with "doodling"? It's a fun game of the dog finding the heel position as you move from place to place. Keep it fun, use a great motivator and teach the dog what heel really means. Then you don't need a second cue.
Make sure you are only rewarding for close and straight. It may be that the dog has been rewarded or released for wide and crooked enough times that it's causing some confusion.

[Ilovemypuppy]

Doodling is what I described, in effect...you can also go side to side and make a game of it...reward after every third sit. I HOPE you are using a HIGH happy voice :o)) Pick up the pace as she becomes comfortable with the game . It really quickens the response and makes them LOVE to heel and get into position .

[Judi W]

I'm not even sure of the question or I "might" have a suggestion or two. Are you saying the dog heels wide? Sits out or crooked? Or that it does not know how to get into position? If so, I'm rather with Alexav and would agree that you have not taught the place yet. The heel place if very specific. You might need to back up and restart the foundation.

[alexav]

Originally Posted by Stubby

I've been working on "get in" by shifting a little away from her, and telling her to get in while gently pushing her butt in to me, and then reward.

If you reward after the fix, the dog gets rewarded for the fix and not the correct position in the first place. If the dog isn't where it should be, no reward. Ignore the wrong position, step forward until the dog is correct, THEN reward.
Reward very often whenever the right position is offered. This solidifies in the dog's mind what "picture" he should be seeing to be correct and win the reward. Surprise reward too, not just after a sit. I often reward on the fly while walking. That really gets them up and in position.

[poohbearsmom]

Originally Posted by Stubby

Hi there, back!! LOL

Jory, that works for getting the position correct for when they sit after heeling for sure, but, what about when you do like a 1/4 turn to the right for example. How do you get her to scooch her butt back into position?

What I'm trying to achieve is to get her to move back into heel position if *I* move out of position.

Have you doodled a lot with her? Witholding reward and a gentle reminder of a simple, gentle "no" when she's off mark? If so, does she view you as a Smorgasbord still?

Also, try going back a bit in your training, you don't want her to have to correct her position... you want it right on the first time.... baby steps are needed perhaps?

[Stubby]

OK, I'm obviously not explaining this correctly.

Dog does heel position correctly. What I want to achieve is for HER to automatically correct the heel position should I move out of position. I have used this in Schutzhund only, never trialed in OB, so I don't even know if this is something that is used in competitive OB.

I stop, dog sits at heel, (in the correct position) then *I* move quarter turn to the right. I want the dog to realize it is out of position and "auto correct" into the heel position. THATS what I mean by "get in", not used as a second command, or cue, just want her to "get in" on her own.

Thats what I'm looking for.

[spidey]

I do exactly this as part of heeling. I don't see why you need a special cue for it, that seems to me to be making things more complicated than they need to be - telling the dog to "heel" should mean "maintain/assume heel position, sit when we halt", adding another cue might just serve to dilute your original cue (I also think that maybe you haven't truly established what heel really means in the dog's mind if you have to come up with a separate cue to get the dog back into position - it seems to me that if the dog genuinely understands the cue, then you should simply have to issue the cue before you move off and the dog should assume and maintain position, no matter what direction you move in). I make a point of having my dog heel through about-turns in both directions, spins on the spot, and side-to-side (mainly because I'm building up to Rally competition, and there are Rally exercises which involve this sort of thing, and also because heeling is boring and stressful if you don't make it interesting). I also wonder if you always reward/release at the halt/sit, rather than during the heeling itself - in my opinion, if you always treat the halt/sit as the "end" of the exercise, then the dog first of all learns to "switch off" a bit when you halt, and also learns to view the goal of heeling as the halt/sit, rather than maintaining position. For this reason I'm working backing up, about-turns and sideways movements into my doodling patterns, and I almost NEVER reward/release at the halt now that we've established the automatic sit, I reward far more frequently for maintaining correct position while moving.

[Stubby]

OK, thanks for all the ideas guys..

But, what part of "I'M NOT USING A CUE" don't you guys hear??!!?? LOL


I'm not giving her a cue, I'm not saying another command.. I'm asking of her to understand to move herself BACK into heel position if I move. SHE has to think, and go, "oh look, he asked me to heel, now he's moved over a bit, I better scoot over and heel!"

She's VERY food motivated, and thats what I'm using for reward. She is a good worker for sure. She knows the heel position. As a matter of fact, I've done very little else with her except teach her the position so far.
In Sch, this is one of the first things you do with a dog, teach him "foos", then work on the auto correction aspect, where the dog holds "foos" no matter if he's in the heel position and you step to the right or not. He/she will follow you..
I've done this with one dog, but not with a dog that likes to snack on me if I poke her! LOL
So there is where I need the advice.
If this is not something you've seen or done before, I assume it's not something that is done in competitive OB??? I don't know..

Anyways, thanks for the input so far..

[alexav]

Originally Posted by Stubby

But, what part of "I'M NOT USING A CUE" don't you guys hear??!!?? LOL


.....................
I've done this with one dog, but not with a dog that likes to snack on me if I poke her! LOL
So there is where I need the advice.

Then just say Foos! Move, say Foos. Reward or move again til she gets it right. I guess I just don't understand the whole POKING thing.
I stand by my original thoughts on this. Go back and teach the Foos from the beginning. If she knows it, why would you need to "poke" her?

With this bitch you are not going to get away with having a dog work to avoid negative. Reward correctness, be fair, and she'll probably amaze you.

[Ilovemypuppy]

Originally Posted by alexav

Then just say Foos! Move, say Foos. Reward or move again til she gets it right. I guess I just don't understand the whole POKING thing.
I stand by my original thoughts on this. Go back and teach the Foos from the beginning. If she knows it, why would you need to "poke" her?

With this bitch you are not going to get away with having a dog work to avoid negative. Reward correctness, be fair, and she'll probably amaze you.

Agree, this girlie's got you flustered....you're working with a lady now Stubby...use your charm and finesse her. Negatives will get you no where...it's a girl thing

I'm serious ! The doodling will get you what you're after..it's fun, fast paced and she'll get it. Negatives can cause avoidance in some dogs depending on their temperament. Doodle that girl.

[spidey]

If she knows it, why would you need to "poke" her?

This is the problem I'm having too, I don't think you're really being fair here. My dog is learning that that "heel" means "maintain heel position", regardless of where and how I move, if you need to poke her or do something other than encourage her somehow (which I think is perfectly acceptable at this stage), then I'd say she doesn't actually fully understand the idea in the first place. Given how easy it is to turn a dog off heeling, I'd say you'd STILL be better off retraining this, but concentrating less on straight lines and more on curves, spirals and about-turns, than you'd be trying to find some way to "poke" her that doesn't involve you getting chomped on.