Auto-correction / positioning

[Judi W]

Regardless of whether you make a quarter turn, a 180 or 360 degree turn, or only a small adjustment of yourself, the word heel (in whatever language) means the dog is to be in a specific place next to you and facing the same direction you are facing. I still see this as a foundation issue wherein the dog doesn't really understand the meaning of the word and that must be retaught. A leash, collar and bait should do it and with no different command. In classes, I have the handlers leave the dog and take themselves out a distance and off side and call the dog to heel. Dog must get up, and over to position teaching them that heel isn't always going to be in a direct line from where they are. Sometimes the handlers keep moving and sometimes they remain stationary. Doodling is doing much the same thing but in a stationary position. The dog's understanding is limited only by what they've been taught so the teaching simply needs to be expanded to include where they are supposed to be regardless of how much movement takes place.

BTW, pushing usually instigates a pushing back against the pressure to maintain balance, not moving with the pressure.

[Ilovemypuppy]

The doodling we do is side to side, backward, forward, handler turning, etc. not stationary. Maybe it's a variation on the original doodle :o) I use it in beginners freestyle practices too and it does work. I like Judi's suggestion of going out front and calling to heel from different locations and body positions .

[Stubby]

OK, got what you guys are talking about.. Go back, re-inforce the heel position, and she should move on her own. That what you are saying?
I guess the compulsion aspect we use in Sch is not something you folks would use. AND, I do want to avoid it myself. If the only tool ya got in your tool box is a hammer, every job begins to look like a nail I guess.. LOL

NOW.. being a Rott, and a stuborn FEMALE Rott, if that doesn't work, are you still saying use no other means to GET her to "get in" ???

Jory, you think if I take her out for dinner she'll work better for me?? LOL


I'll try this "doodling" thing of which you guys speak as well..

Thanks for the input folks.

[laurlitt]

Originally Posted by Stubby

I guess the compulsion aspect we use in Sch is not something you folks would use. AND, I do want to avoid it myself. If the only tool ya got in your tool box is a hammer, every job begins to look like a nail I guess.. LOL

Obedience is obedience is obedience... There are many ways to train obedience (compulsion is one of them, but not necessarily only done in Sch. obedience and not all sch. obedience is accomplished by compulsion)... You can go to 10 different Sch. clubs and see it trained 10 different ways and the same thing w/ 10 different OB clubs....

Just don't want the stereotype of compulsion and Sch. to stick....

[Stubby]

Yep, you are absolutely right.
I just see it used a lot more in Sch.

[Judi W]

If you think one can do competitive obedience with an "only if you want to darlin" trained dog you are greatly mistaken!

In the teaching phase, regardless of venue, one makes every effort for it to be motivational - unless it becomes obvious that you are getting pure and simple refusal!

"Go back, re-inforce the heel position, and she should move on her own. That what you are saying?"

Precisely. Now, if you know that you have indeed laid the foundation and that she certainly does know what heel means and is simply being lazy, correct her little ass into position. Playing dumb is something some dogs make great use of.

The term doodling was coined by Self and Godsill so long ago that no one had ever heard of using bait for obedience training. (just a bit of trivia for those so minded).

My rule in all things is "we can do this the easy way or the hard way - up to you"

[Stubby]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Now, if you know that you have indeed laid the foundation and that she certainly does know what heel means and is simply being lazy, correct her little ass into position.

OK... Now here is where I ask. WHAT correction? The poke in the ribs to MAKE her move over is not going to work, so, a yank on the choke??
WHAT other method???

Yes.. I'm obtuse...

[alexav]

Originally Posted by Stubby

I guess the compulsion aspect we use in Sch is not something you folks would use. AND, I do want to avoid it myself. If the only tool ya got in your tool box is a hammer, every job begins to look like a nail I guess.. LOL

NOW.. being a Rott, and a stuborn FEMALE Rott, if that doesn't work, are you still saying use no other means to GET her to "get in" ???

Compulsion to teach? NO. Correction for choosing not to play a known game to win? YES! A fair collar pop should not get this girly to climb the lead and eat you.
Open your horizons, put your hammer back in the toolbox, and see if you can find some new tools. This girly seems to be protesting being pushed around. I think she's smart. Show her that it is in her best interest to learn to win the game and that yes, there is a penalty for "fouls".
SchH does not have to equal compulsion. Many of the dogs that are winning consistently in ringsport and the higher competitive venues in SchH are much happier workers. But don't take my word for it....Ever heard of a guy named Ivan Balabanov?

[alexav]

Originally Posted by Stubby

OK... Now here is where I ask. WHAT correction? The poke in the ribs to MAKE her move over is not going to work, so, a yank on the choke??
WHAT other method???

Yes.. I'm obtuse...

FIRST, get her to learn to move for the REWARD. Show her how to win.
Later, if she is a) choosing to be distracted, or b) thinking she has a choice, collar correction followed by a few reps of reminding how to win.

(added) You may have to get out of your comfort zone and be more animated with her. Move like you are interesting, surprise, be unpredictable in your movements, she will be challenged and want to win even more.

[Judi W]

I certainly would never consider a poke in the ribs a correction. That is simply trying to shove the dog into position. A normal correction involves a collar pop, instantly given and instantly released.

Just prompted to note the "snack on my arm" bit. If that is her response to a reasonable correction, you've got some other things to work on!

[Stubby]

Alexav, very good points. And yes, I'm certainly not adverse to getting out of my comfort zone in regard to training methods. The hammer has been stored for another time, and that is why I am here asking this question!

You have her pegged, she IS a VERRRYY smart girl. Will pick up stuff in 5 minutes it would take me a week to teach TJ.

As far as compoulsion and Sch, yes, I know they don't go hand in hand all the time, but, I would think you would find it used much more often than other methods to train.. no?? Certainly is at the 4 or 5 clubs in this area.

Judi, Why wouldn't flanking be considered a correction? does a correction always have to involve a collar? I asked you to do something, but you didn't, so, I'm correcting you and at the same time showing you where I want you to be?? No???
Again, this is something I've seen used at 2 clubs in the area.


Thanks again for your input.

[Judi W]

A poke is not flanking. Flanking is grabbing that very tender skin flap and it hurts big time, but it is not likely to move the dog in the desired direction. True flanking should elicit a scream and have the dog spinning around and usually in a protective mood.

Your poking takes too much manipulation on your part and as you stated, isn't effective anyway. A collar correction is done with you maintaining your body position for the dog to get with, as opposed to turning, bending and reaching in order to administer a "poke" which then leaves the dog to figure where the heck is heel position to this turned and bent person?

Traditional methods are not all wrong you know. The collar pop tells the dog to get with the program, it is as simple as that.

[Stubby]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Your poking takes too much manipulation on your part and as you stated, isn't effective anyway.

But it IS effective. I've used it on TJ and it worked fine. Just doesn't work on THIS dog. So, I need another way to get to point B.
I see this method used on dogs at clubs around here all the time. So, it's not like I've invented it. It must be of SOME merit, no?

No one is deriding "traditional methods" Judi, just trying to get some advice on a better way to handle this particular dog. They are ALL different...

P.S. This has been a very informative discussion. Interesting to see all the infromation that has come from this post.

[alexav]

Originally Posted by Stubby

But it IS effective. I've used it on TJ and it worked fine. Just doesn't work on THIS dog. So, I need another way to get to point B.
I see this method used on dogs at clubs around here all the time. So, it's not like I've invented it. It must be of SOME merit, no?

Yes, I think it does have some merit...as a crutch.
I watched a trainer recently use a guide stick to tap her dog and remind him to use his butt. I thought this was interesting and looked like it did work without distorting the picture the dog sees of the correct position. She is using it in the teaching phase of this dog's training, not as a correction.
Is it a tool I'll ever use? I don't know...but I put it in my mental toolbox just in case.

Most SchH clubs teach the moving stand with a prong collar under the flanks...it works, but that doesn't make it the best method out there. I'd rather teach the long way and have a dog that doesn't cringe, pin his ears back, and hump his back when I give the signal.


I am not a purist of any sort. I'm not a bleeding heart that believes that little doggies should never have anything unpleasant ever happen to them that might hurt their feelings. I have been known to make a dog vocalize on the training field and elsewhere on occasion but the dogs always knew why.

I like taking the path of least resistance and most fun for the dog. I want to be able to take a dog to a huge empty field and have him CHOOSE to play my games, by my rules because my games are fun and my rules are fair and just.
These games just happen to include the goal of some very high obedience scores but the dog doesn't know this.

My toolbox is huge and I add to it all the time. And yes, there is a hammer in there somewhere too.

[Judi W]

Originally Posted by Stubby

..........Just doesn't work on THIS dog. So, I need another way to get to point B...

But this is the dog we're addressing here, not the dog you used to own or someone else's dog. So, why not use the simple and direct collar pop?

I too see people who've attended a seminar and show up at training with target sticks, pieces of this and that. They often appear to be quite helpful, but rarely to the degree that they outshine the simple and direct reward what you want more of and correct what you don't want. They don't seem to last too long as they are usually more trouble than help.

I have recommended flanking for the dog that charges ahead of the handler off lead to the degree that the handler couldn't reach the collar if s/he wanted to. Brings that business to a quick stop quite effectively. Doesn't seem to me to be the most efficient manner to move a dog in however.

So, at any rate, I personally use the direct and simple approach first. I save the complex ideas for complex exercises and I don't believe heel position is that complex. In (more) other words, don't try to make something simple, difficult.

But, I've perhaps leaped too far ahead. Are you saying you've used the simple collar pop correction and bait reward and it has not had the effect of indicating to this lazy little girl that she needs to get her butt over by you? If that is the case, then we'll need to put our collective thinking caps on. If it is not, .......... do it. (I'm suspecting it is more a bit of laziness because I don't really believe that you haven't taught her heel position, she just doesn't want to be bothered with small adjustments)