I need your opinion on response to commands

[Wolf355]

Hi guys, I'm quite peeved this morning. I was trainning with Gucci and she would not respond to commands the way she usually does. She was anticipating commands and kinda being slow on her responses. I did as I always do and slapped the ''house leash'' on her ( just a short loop). When she would not obey properly, I would correct her with the chocker. This, of course implied that if I was at any distance I would have to go grab the leash. As I did this, she growled at me. I grabed her right away by the skin of her neck and flipped her on her back saying no. As I saw she was cooling off, I gave her a nice pet on the side of her face and told her ''good girl''. This is after she had calmed down and had become submissive,of course.

When a dog gets like that with me though I become very strict and the dog has to heel and stay RIGHT by me at all times. No walking freely around the house, no treats, no cuddles...nada. It has to pay attention and be alert. That's what I have always done...dunno if it's right or not...but that's how I was taught. I go to OB trainning once a week although it's not my first time taking lessons I always feel better doing it with a new dog and getting corrected if I've taken any bad habbits since my last course.

So after this incident, I had Gucci heel next to me for several minutes in a sit stay ( very uncomfortable for a dog..but so is standing in the corner for my kids when they are punnished ;-0) She did great. I praised her and started doing commands again with her. Sit,stay, down, stay,etc. She began anticipating again. As soon as she would see my hand move she would sit when she was in a ''down stay'' etc. Note that I had not made the hand signal for her to sit yet. And when I did correct her, she would attempt to take her time ( I say attempt cause I do not tolerate a dog that takes it's time to listen...so I would make her do it like a puppy). I always give praise after the dog obeys. So anyhoo, the sdituation repeated itself 3 times where I would go to get the leash and she would give me a low growl. It sounded to me like: '' you're lucky I have my leash on or I would not listen'' type of reflexion.

I have had Gucci a month and she has never tried this type of thing. She lets me (reluctantly) put her hand in her food bowl. Well, she kinda growled a few times but I corrected her gently and she started to cool off on it. Now she'll just leave if I come close to the bowl and she doesn't come back till I've left. Not the ideal response I would like but still what I understand to be a sign of submission. She usually amases people by how well she responds to my commands. Always willing and very, VERY bright. I have taught this dog things in record time...she just gets it. I've deffinately never had a dog THIS bright (not that the others were dumb by any means).

She is 14 months old and a rescue from a couple that split up. The reason I got her was through my trainer. He had given trainning classes to the previous owner and the owner contacted him when he had to get rid of her. So I sorta know her history (kinda). I know the previous owner was a bit rough when her. He didn't beat her but the trainner told me that he wasn't the ideal Rottie owner. Just this week my trainner commented on how happy she looked since she came to my house.

I'm not someone who likes the violent approach to trainning a dog. I prefer positive reinforcement...though I do use a choke collar for corrections. Which brings me to my question (sorry it took so long but I wanted to give you a general piture of the way I act with my dog).

So which brings us back to the growling while trainning this morning. As I would go to correct her she growled. The first time I grabbed her by the skin of her neck so fast she never knew what caught her. I filled her over on her back and told her ''NO''! As soon as she calmed down I praised her petting her on the side of the face and said: '' good girl''. I figured that would be it. We continued trainning and she tried it again when I approached to grab the leash. I did the same thing..but a bit faster and harder. Gucci goes into submisson instantly ( I can't blame her) and I praise her and continue working with her. She's listenning better and better every time. This has happened. Really paying attention. She's her old self. At that point I'm close to ending the trainning session cause things seem cool and she's working well. I want to leave it on a positive note. I figure I'll do two more commands ( easy ones) ''down-stay'' and finish with ''sit'' and finally ''time out''. But she anticipates my command again...so I go to correct her and she growls again. This time I lost it and went quite hard on her when flipping her on her back and I help her stronly by the throat. I'm not proud to say this but I got really insulted that she would do this again. I worked her again and we were finally able to finish on a good note. OUF! I've had several dogs in my life: Mastiffs, Rotties and Pitts. I have never had a dog growl at me three times in a row like that. Of course, the first thing in my mind was: '' what did I do wrong for the dog not to understand me''. I figure I took the wrong approach the first two times or it would have worked.

I'm a big guy (6'3'' - 300lbs). I know I can get psysical and win over a dog...BUT I DON'T WANT TO. I will correct and train the dog....but I don't want to have to intimidate the dog into listening. I'M a fairly experienced dog owner...not as much as some of the folks here...but still. And I have never had this kind of challenge...not even from my 135lbs male Rottie. What am I doing wrong? Any ideas? Is it only the dog ''testing'' me?

One thing I can think of is that the boys were home when this happened. She may figure that since I'm so much more busy than when she alone with me she can try and gain a little ground and I won't notice or have the time to put her in her place? Maybe I have been too permissive too quickly (she slleps on a doggy matress in my room at night I took the leash off her inside the house recently. The week before she was on the leash at all times (the loop one) though she was allowed to roam the house and not forced to be at my side.

Right now due to this incident, I took my old military leash out. It's tied around my waist and Gucci has to be at my side all the time. I don't give her OB commands too much at the moment to let her cool off...but she has no ''priviledges''. Needless to say that I do not want to go through this too often. I'm not scared of the dog...but I don't want to hurt her either!

I just got off the phone with my trainer and he said I may be working her a bit too much and that I should take it easy till the class next sunday. He said that it was better to do what I did than accept her chalenge. ''better that you hurt her than she hurts you'' he said. I don't quite know if I see it that way...but we'll see. I think he may be right on the too much tranning thing. He also said that she would test me till she saw my limit. And that she would ease down after that. This guy is quite used to trainning Rotties and has the Canadian 1st place in OB.

So I guess I just wanted some feedback from you guiys on this situation. What do you guys think about all this. From what I have written can you tell where I have gone wrong?

Thanks for any help you have to offer on this and soryy for such a long post.

[Judi W]

Well, I'm going to be a bit brief to what was a long story and do not be offended by my corrections as they are directly related to the training issue, not a personal thing ever with me.

First of all, you must separate the anticipation from slow responses. They are totally separate issues. The anticipation is normally an attempt to please and a dog that is so excited to show you she knows what is coming. Of course after your fix-it session it then became built entirely on anxiety and an attempt to avoid your displeasure. So, in reference to that, I'd say you did a bad thing all around on that item. You initially punished her for trying to please and then followed that up by building anxiety. Anticipation should always be dealt with very calmly and in a positive fashion, not hammered. Otherwise you run the risk of totally confusing the dog. They are anticipating because they were taught that certain actions pleased you and corrections must be very careful or they then start thinking they can't depend upon anything they thought they understood.

The growling came into play when she felt you had pushed her beyond what her sense of fairness told her was reasonable. (I agree with your trainer - and the dog to some degree!).

As a trainer, be careful never to get wed to a goal during a session. (yes, we ALL do that and it is never successful!) Instead marry yourself to a goal of understanding, reading the fine nuances of what is going on in the dog's mind.

[brunie's mom]

You have only had this dog for a month. She is just starting to fit into your home and getting to know you and to trust you.

I also think you need to step back a bit with the training. I would not be flipping an adult Rottweiler either....she may go for your face the next time without a growl.

She sounds like a good girl, but your training is stressing her...and she is fighting you. I think it's more of a partnership.

Dogs do have bad days just like people. I have been embarassed a few times taking my dogs to class, when they just wanted to act like they had never heard the command before.
The next week would go much better.

Gina

[Wolf355]

Thanks guys. That puts me back on the right track. It is logical that if she feels punished for trying to please she's gonna be freaking out. Makes perfect sense to me now. I may well have been expecting too much from her in such a short time. But she is soooo obedient usually that I guess I got caught up in expecting that all the time from her. She's a great dog and I don't want to scrap our relationship.

One more question regarding this if you guys have the patience. I've been laying off the commands and trying to make our life more enjoyable than this morning. I started playing fetch with her in the house and she was having fun. at some point I went to get the ball from her and she growled again. Not perfectly sure if that one was a play growl or not. I felt totally discourraged when this happened. I didn't get physical on her cause frankly my moral is already bad from this confrontation this morningf. I just said a firm ''no'' and sent her to chill out in her cage. I know a cage is not punishement and I didn't send her for that reason. I just don't want us to keep taking steps backwards. So I figured this way we could each relax with some time apart.

But I'm wondering if it was a playfull growl or because she was posessive of her toy. I normally can tell the difference very easily but I wasn't sure about this particular growl. Do you guys have different recommendations in light of this? Should I just letr her be for today and leave her in the cage? let her out but not pay attention to her? Did I over react to a playfull growl? I am at a bit of a loss.

I've never been faced with this particular problem.

Thanks again for all your help and time.

[Judi W]

Back off a bit and don't take things personally. Relax more and don't forget to laugh at yourself or her! Who knows without a hands on, it might very well have been a tug growl especially if you've not built up to a good and positively built out. Instead of trying to wrestle the ball, stand there and do nothing............... humm, she will be saying - you mean this is not a tug of war game? Dang!

[Wolf355]

She usually never has a problem with the out command. She's positively clear on that and usually will even bring the ball in my hand and drop it as soon as I say out.

Should I try fetching again to see if we can just have fun or should I just let her be in the house while I do my own things? I'll admit I'm finding it a bit hard to laugh about it at the moment. The last thing I want is more confrontation for today...lol. I feel like when I have an big argument with the kids ( thank god that is rare) but I get totally drainned. ;)

What can I say, I'm 6'3'' and built like a ???? brick house but I'm all sugar inside! ;-) Typical teddy bear...lol

[Judi W]

When you are in a hole, quite digging.

[Wolf355]

Originally Posted by Judi W

When you are in a hole, quite digging.

Roger that! ;-) We're gonna chill for today then.

[Judi W]

And tomorrow as well.

[alexav]

You say you like to use "positive reinforcement". What are you using for a reward?
From what I read, you are asking her to work to avoid correction and she is getting pets for a reward. I hope I am wrong.

[Wolf355]

Originally Posted by alexav

You say you like to use "positive reinforcement". What are you using for a reward?
From what I read, you are asking her to work to avoid correction and she is getting pets for a reward. I hope I am wrong.

Uh, I'm not quite sure what you mean exactly. I do not use the positive reinforcement technique per say (clicker and all) I use the same technique I was taught in all the dog schools I have been to. I give the command and praise if the dog does it well (a small pet on the side of the face if the dog is next to me or on the body) and lots of positive vocal feedback (goodgirl, good heel, good sit etc.) I will occasionally give the dog a treat when it does well...but not too often so as to have the dog listen only for treats. If the dog does not respond and knows the command, I will tug on the slip chain instead of repeating the command.

Am I missing something here? I'm kind of puzzled by your question. This has worked well with the dogs I have had in the past. Is my technique wrong? If so, could you explain why exactly so I can fully grasp the concept and hopefully correct my technique.

Thanks

[Wolf355]

Originally Posted by Judi W

And tomorrow as well.

K, boss. Sabatical tomorrow as well. If I'm good, can Gucci gimme a cookie? ;-)

Seriously, though any recommendations on what I SHOULD do with the dog in the mean time? I assume that normal things like ''move out of the way'' or come when she's in the yard are still ok...right? Any playing allowed?

[SonnyRott]

How about a nice, long hike in the woods. New smells, new adventures, no rules, no training, no commands. Just both relax and enjoy nature and each other. Let her romp in the stream, pee where she wants and act like a silly girl. Give her the ball and let her carry it.

I believe she's telling you she is tired of the "drill" and is getting anxious about the constant need for perfection. She already knows how to do it and needs a break. She sounds confused that you physically restrain/punish her, then immediately pet her for lying still. She's probably not connecting the dots on that routine and she is anxious. I would probably growl too. She sounds like she is a good dog, just relax with her more and let her be a dog. Make time for this on a daily basis and the two of you should be fine.

[alexav]

Originally Posted by Wolf355

I give the command and praise if the dog does it well (a small pet on the side of the face if the dog is next to me or on the body) and lots of positive vocal feedback (goodgirl, good heel, good sit etc.) I will occasionally give the dog a treat when it does well...but not too often so as to have the dog listen only for treats.

Sorry, I don't consider what you are describing as "positive reinforcement".

I don't use clickers either (God gave me a nice set of vocal chords) but there are many ways to use positive reinforcement. They all have one thing in common...a real reward. Most dogs get pets for free, why should they have to work for it? And frankly, unless a dog is socially strarved for attention, petting is kind of a lame reward, wouldn't you agree?
In reality, the only reason dogs trained in this manner seem to respond to petting and a happy voice is because they have come to learn that it means they won't be punished.

When you begin training a dog, you ideally should be teaching the dog a "game", like sit for example. There is always a prize for winning the game. What does the dog REALLY like? Food? a game of tug? A ball? Figure that out and you're ahead of the game.
If you and your dog are playing a game, there is no power struggle, no "confrontation", no anger.
If you do some homework, you will learn that when a reward is used as a "reward" and not a "bribe" your dog becomes a "believer". They begin to believe that you are the giver of all things wonderful and that you will, reward them, even if you aren't waving liver in their face. This is the mistake a lot of newbies make, bribing the dog and showing him clearly when, and when you don't have a reward. Make sense?

When the dog "knows" the game, there is a penalty for non performance but the reward is what the dog is really working for, not working to avoid the penalty.
Now, how to keep the dog believing in you, without rewarding every single correct performance? (I know you're thinking this... )
Ever been to Las Vegas? YEAH! And dogs are even BETTER at gambling than humans.

If you think about it in human terms, which are you going to work harder for; a boss that gets angry at you if you are late to work, or a boss that gives you a hundred dollar bill if you are on time?
More importantly, who are you going to be HAPPIER working for?

[Wolf355]

Hi guys, sorry I didn't respond earlier...it's been a busy-bad week. On the up side, Gucci is doing much better.

Alex, what you are describing is in part the type of trainning I do with my Gucci. Although it is always possible to get better on the making it fun aspect. I have been working on keeping a higher toned voice too while working (which is pretty hard in my case...lol) and I have been making double the effort on treats (even though I was giving some before). I also got a Giant flexi and found a park where there is a lake and she just loves it.

which brings me to another question: As I said I got the flexi for her and I noticed she is really scared of that leash for some reason. I don't know if she was beatten with one or what ( she's a rescue if you recal) but she pratically rolls over on the ground and yelps to all heavens if I pull even the slightest bit with that leash. I figure there may be something about the form factor of the leash that makes her uneasy...or something. Now, it's important to note that she doesn't do this with the trainning leash at all. Can you guys think of a way to help her overcome this fear?

So I wanted to give you guys some feedback on how things were going with Gucci. The laying off for a while seems to have helped a bit...although she doesn't listen quite as well as before...but I figure that will come with time. I have started slowly working with her again and have tried to make lots of fun for her. I also train less than before with her so as to try and let her enjoy herself and simply be a dog more. I think that I was over compensating cause it is the first time I take in a rescue since I have had my boys and I may have been a bit overly concerned for their safety. I'm a bit of a father hen ;-) I guess I wanted to make sure she was 200% under my control...which is no better if the dog is made unhappy.

So anyhoo, that's the point where we are at. Gucci is happier and so am I.

Thanks for all the help up til now and if you have any ideas on helping her overcome that fear of this new leash, I would appreciate any input.

Wolf