Taking an agility class 1st time

[MontanaRott]

So what we know about agility could could fit on the head of a pin with room to spare.
A week from this coming Wednesday, Guerin and Scout are signed up to start a beginning agility class.
They both need something to do over the winter, and this sounds like just the ticket.
So, what to expect, what equipment if any do we need? The gal that teaches the class is also our feed store owner and just when we were getting ready to get the details, everyone and their brother showed up to buy feed, so I am asking you. I will also talk to Sue again before the class begins.
TIA.

[Wolf355]

Just a quick question: I was warned not to try agility with Gucci since it would be too hard on her joints and she may get injured. This advice came from my trainer who's Rottie is the Canadian 1st place in obedience. He was saying that Rotties are just too big and muscular for agility. Now, this may be wrong. I know that some folks do agility with their Rotties. What are your thoughts on the matter. I tried an agility ring again tonight with Gucci and she has loads of fun with it. I try to keep the jumping at a minimum though since she's only 14 months old.

Anyhoo, thanks for any advice.

Wolf

[Miabella]

Shirley, in my very novice opinion, the one piece of equipment you definitely need when you first start out is weavepoles. The dogs cannot learn weaves just doing them in class once a week, you need to teach them at home. I have been very successful with my dogs using the channel method.

I'm sure you'll get much better advice from some of our agility competitors!

[MontanaRott]

Originally Posted by Miabella

Shirley, in my very novice opinion, the one piece of equipment you definitely need when you first start out is weavepoles. The dogs cannot learn weaves just doing them in class once a week, you need to teach them at home. I have been very successful with my dogs using the channel method.

I'm sure you'll get much better advice from some of our agility competitors!

Good idea! If the two of them seem to like it and Phil wants to pursue agility, I bet he will be building the weave poles!

Wolf, we have lots of folks here who do agility with their Rottweilers and don't have problems.

[Bastianboy]

Well, our trainer says that the heavy competitors at the least should have 2 jumps and a set of weavepoles. You can set up a lot of different things with just that little equipment. Bastian did learn weavepoles just in class, but now we have a set to try to get him faster and to stop bouncing through them. Right now we have a set of weavepoles, 2 jumps and a teeter. We didn't start using any of it at home until we got close to trialing. Good luck and welcome to the world of agility...it's really addicting!!!

[Silvermarten]

I agree with Laurie .

Weave poles for home practise would be a great addition . A couple of pvc jumps would be useful too

Henry learnt a different method for weaving ( we were in clicker classes back then ) . Supplies used for introduction : Two poles , clicker , treats . Initially stand with dog near poles , click and treat intrest in poles . Then only click and treat when going through poles ( throw treat ahead so dog goes all the way through ) . Add another pole . Only click & treat entries from right side of first pole , once that's going well don't click entry but step forward to right of next pole . Dog will look to you " hey no treat ? " and usually walks between next poles towards you , click ( when between poles ) and toss treat . Once that's going well with 3 poles add more one by one and repeat .
It was a VERY slow learning method BUT I can guarentee no matter what Henry always enters weaves from the right
He's my first agility dog so I haven't used any other methods . Clearly it worked well for the 'weaveweiler' .
I've heard awesome comments about channel weave training .

[Wolf355]

Originally Posted by MontanaRott

Wolf, we have lots of folks here who do agility with their Rottweilers and don't have problems.

How can you tell if your dog is a good candidate for agility and will not develop health problems? I've never done agility with any of my dogs before, but seeing how Gucci reacted on the course at the dog park I can tell she would REALLY enjoy this. I guess she's a bit young to try agility right now? As I said, she's about 14 - 16 months old. At what age could I start? I tried the course at the dog park just for the fun of it and she did amasingly well. 1st time with leash and I tried the following day without a leash and she did it all without a mistake. I've had this dog going on three weeks and she never ceases to amase me. I tought her to walk backwards in 1 time (about fifteen minutes). That was close to two weeks ago and I hadn't had the time to practice it with her again since I use a long wall and I couldn't find one on our walks. Two days ago I was doing obedience with her on the street and figured I'd mess with her a bit just to see if she even remembered the command a bit...fully expecting her not to repond and I would have teased her about it a bit. (ok, I'm weird I have conversations with my dogs....lol!)
So I gave her the command and to my absolute astonishement she walked backwards while heeling perfectly for about 10 feet!!!! LOL This dog could get a PHD if she would put her mind to it! ;-) I taught her to ''talk'' in about 15 minutes too...although she may have known that command before hand....I'm guessing.

Sorry, there I go again! ;) So how would you guys recommend I check her physically to make sure she wouldn't get hurt and how do I go about starting her out on agility...and at what age?

I really want to thank all you guys for this fantastic resource! It's great to be able to interact with people who have so much experience with this particular breed! I've been spening so much time reading on this site in the last few days...and I've barely acratched the surface!

So a huge Rottie thank you to you all and a big Rottie purr! ;)

[Silvermarten]

Originally Posted by Wolf355

Just a quick question: I was warned not to try agility with Gucci since it would be too hard on her joints and she may get injured. This advice came from my trainer who's Rottie is the Canadian 1st place in obedience. He was saying that Rotties are just too big and muscular for agility. Now, this may be wrong. I know that some folks do agility with their Rotties. What are your thoughts on the matter. I tried an agility ring again tonight with Gucci and she has loads of fun with it. I try to keep the jumping at a minimum though since she's only 14 months old.

Anyhoo, thanks for any advice.

Wolf

There's a lot of us doing agility with our rotts
Don't do much in the way of jumping ( and keep them low ) until you've had hips and elbows cleared at 2yrs .
If your dog is healthy , not overweight and has no structural issues ( hips, elbows etc ) there's no reason you cann't have an agility rottie .

[Bastianboy]

Yep, that's pretty close to what we did. Bastian started light agility at 16 weeks old. Tessa was a bit younger as she came with us to Bastian's private classes. She is 8 months old now and still the jumps are low enough to walk over. Bastian didn't even start jumping his actual AKC height until he was 2 and almost trialing, but we did jump him 16-20" around when he was 18 months. His hip are OFA Excellent and elbows are Normal. I would say if you take it easy they'll be fine.

[MontanaRott]

Thanks for the feedback you guys! We will take the two of them to class, see how it goes and then if one or both take to it, start looking into the equipment you suggest.

[spidey]

The serious agility people I know keep their dogs VERY lean, much leaner than you'd think, especially if they have larger breeds, and they also keep them very fit. I've heard more than one agility person say that they want to be able to clearly see ribs if the dog is exerting itself or turning (not when standing still). It definitely can help minimize the wear and tear on a bigger dog if you keep them healthy, but very lean and very fit. If you're not planning on serious competition, there's probably no reason to have your dog as lean as the more serious competitors, but you should definitely keep them lean and fit (a good idea no matter what you do or don't do with your dog).

Good luck with your class Shirley! We start our first "real" agility class tomorrow night as well (we've done the very basic class twice, but now we're moving on up).

[BostonRott]

Here are a bunch of posts that I've written.....in no particular order:

One thing I hate about most beginner agility classes is that they're more the level of "here's something to do with your dog" instead of correctly teaching foundation work.....kinda like the difference between PetSmart obedience classes and a competition obed class.

My advice: DO NOT put the dog on the teeter / dogwalk again until you have done some foundation work. I don't care what your instructor says, you wouldn't put a 10yr old into algebra without teaching basic math would you?? Sorry, this is one of my huge bugaboos and why I think so many first-time dogs are ruined. If they decide to do teeter/dogwalk, sit out and watch.

Start with 2 things: a Buja board (if you search online, you'll find a description) and plank work. You also need to figure out what you want for a contact performance (2on/2off, or whatever). Teach the dog to run across the plank with confidence then start raising it up. Use the Buja board to start teaching confidence on moving surfaces.

I personally teach the teeter first, then the dogwalk. This way the dog doesn't think that "planks which go up are always solid." They learn the teeter, are confident on it and then the dogwalk is basically an afterthought.

I also like to teach a contact performance before doing a lot of contact obstacle work. I use 2 on / 2 off, and both girls prefer to put themselves in a sit (vs standing). This is taught first on stairs (to get the height differences) , using a target and nose touch. Then we go to the plank on the ground, and then the raised plank.

You can buy pieces of PVC (2", 4" etc) and cut them in half, then put the plank over it, to start with slight tips. Only do this after the dog is confident on the Buja board.

*************

Sharon,

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner on this, having email problems.

After listening to most of the various USDAA and AKC world competitors, I have decided that 2o/2o is the only way. I train it using a target, and the dog is never on the contact before they have a reliable nose-touch to the target, especially at a dead run on the flat.

Christine Charpentier (France) is the only world-level competitor that has had a RELIABLE running contact. Many feel that the ability to have a true running contact is based on the dog's structure and natural stride. There's a very detailed two-part article on this in past issues of Clean Run. Problem is......even the sons of her dog (who had a very solid running contact) can't emulate his performance and she has lost the reliability.

I'd rather know that my dog will hit the contact 100% of the time, and make up the 0.1sec elsewhere on the course, than have to worry about a running contact.

After we have a solid nose-touch on the flat, I then start a process which takes many many months to solidify. What I personally want are independant contacts, I don't want to have to be there to baby sit, or have my body motion stop to get the dog to perform it.

*********

He's running slowly because you've confused him. Sometimes you allow him to just go (running contact) and sometimes you ask him to stop (2o/2o) and sometimes there is a target and sometimes there isn't. Basically, he doesn't know what to expect....you've muddied the water significantly. Make a decision on which one you're going to use and stick to it......that way he always knows what his expected performance is. Right now, he doesn't trust you to be clear about obstacle performance and he doesn't want to be wrong, so he goes slowly.

The reason for the target and the nose touch is to keep the head down. Keeping the head down causes weight to shift back off the front end, and keeps the dog from slamming into position.

I have been to Chris Zink's seminar and seen the slo-mo videos of the damage to shoulders and feet (those stupid slats....wish they would get rid of them all!!!). But every dog with poor form also had head up, looking at handler for next direction. Two keys: a) teach head-down (nose touch) and b) give information earlier.

Once you make a decision what method you're going to use, do some VERY high reward reps for a few weeks to teach him that THIS is how we do it now, and ONLY this way. Let him learn that you have decided to be clear and here is what you expect. Until you do that, you'll never see a confident performance out of him. The other thing you're probably going to see in trial is him blowing the contacts because your stress will be up, he will feed off of it, he already knows you're unclear on those obstacles and he'll just fly off of them (avoidance).

**********

Target placement depends on what you want for a position. I want the front feet off the obstacle and the rear still well within the contact (some train for the back feet to be on the physical edge of the board). This varies with size of dog. My targets are always loaded (when we're doing runs in class, I have someone pre-load contacts for me while we're setting up at the start line). Vik has never missed a contact in trial yet.

Also, be SURE you are clear on your release. You running off again is NOT a release. There needs to be a word. For the Grrls it is "Nice job, good dog, ok!" This forces them to hold the contact for at least 1-2 seconds to really re-inforce the performance during their first year of trialing. I don't worry about placements in Nov/Open (they're nice, but not my goal at this point in competition), I worry about correct obstacle performance. Later on, they'll get an almost instant release, but by that point, they'll be so solid in their contacts that it shouldn't affect a thing.

********

Congrats on moving up, and you're going to LOVE agility!!! :)

Here are a few things, based on your comments:

Weave poles are the sole obstacle which causes the most injury. They are FAR more dangerous to a dog's structure than jumping is, if you're going to hold off on anything, hold off on weave poles.

Re: jumping and growth plates, at this age, her growth plates should be closed. Kurt Matsuchek (sp?!) is an AKC judge who happens to be an orthopedic specialist (veterinary) and editor of one of the major magazines (JAVMA maybe?). He has been compiling data and studies on growth plate injuries and has shown that some stress is better for the growth plates than no stress. I.e. all these silly breeders who refuse to let their puppies run, jump, be on linolleum, do stairs til X age, etc. are actually doing their puppies a great disservice. The only time there is significant injury to the growth plates are with trauma (hit by car, fell down entire flight of stairs, etc). I'm working on contacting him and getting copies of his work.

So ..... go ahead and teach the dog to jump correctly at a "real" height. Teaching low jumps will only come back to bite you in the butt later. Dogs develop muscle memory (jumping and weaving are true muscle memory, everything else is a learned/re-inforced behaviour). Unlearning muscle memory is VERY hard. Try this: go upstairs and brush your teeth with your "other" hand. Hard, eh? Why? B/c you have muscle memory for this action and trying to go against it is both physically and MENTALLY difficult. If a dog spends a lot of time jumping low, and learns incorrect jumping, overcoming it later will be hard. Your girl will be jumping 24" as her competition height. She can easily start learning on 16" jumps and then quickly move up to full height, I wouldn't stay at 16" very long at all (week or so). Vikka was competing at 20" (her then competition height, she's since measured up) at 15mos, and went OFA Excellent / Elbows clear. Don't let this obnoxious "boogy man" (large breeds have fragile joints) scare you.

As to contacts, there's PLENTY that you can do now (and probably should do if your classes are taught like most) before class ever starts. In the working section is a thread about the Aframe. I delineated a program for teaching a "2 on/ 2 off" (aka 2o/2o) contact. It's easy, requires your stairs, a target, lots of yummy treats and a 12" wide plank (12' long is nice, but not necessary). I truly believe that dogs who are going to compete should be taught a contact behaviour before they ever start doing the actual equipment. Most beginner classes don't do this b/c people are so eager to get their dogs doing "everything" and only those with previous experience know enough to say "no, I want a contact performance first." Between now and April, you can easily teach a nice solid contact for both the Aframe (using the stairs) and the dog walk / teeter (using the plank, which is the same width as these obstacles).

Agility has become an EXTREMELY competitive sport. While that may not mean anything to you now, if you and Raelin do well and move up, you'll quickly find yourself near the bottom of the Q list if you don't have some solid behaviours built up. Dogs are winning by 0.01sec differences (electronic timing) and having a dog who truly understands it's job on each piece of equipment will get you up into ribbons and keep you there.

You can also teach a few behaviours "on the flat" that will help you later. #1 Get her used to working on your RIGHT! The biggest problem that "obedience" dogs have is that they're used to being on the left, and often when they get confused, they gravitate back to your left side b/c that's where all the rewards have been. As you start training ANY exercise in class, make sure you do 2 reps on your right for every one you do on your left.

Work on the flat:

Teach her to go out to a target straight in front of you. Put the word "Go!" to this. Later you can use this to send her down a line of jumps (ahead of you).....often closing sequences in Jumpers are very fast straight lines of jumps. A "go" command sends the dog out to keep jumping whatever is in front of it and get across that finish line (time stops with the dog crossing, not you crossing).

Put a target out to your side (laterally) and teach her to go out to it, laterally off your side. Work this on BOTH sides. Put the word "out" to it. Even if you already use "out" to mean "drop things in your mouth," the context is different and you won't have a problem (SchH2 Froli knew the difference between out and out). This will be used if you need to push the dog sideways/lateral off of you to get out to a jump.....or if she's facing two jumps side by side, "out" will get her to the outer one, VERY helpful in Open/Ex level courses.

Another way to teach "out" is to get her to run out around a chair in your living room....out sideways away from you and around the chair. Toss a treat/toy to her as she comes around to reward her out there, away from you.

Does she like to play tug? Work on building that up and using it as reward. Since she has an obedience background, you can start phasing it in for correct sits, downs, etc. Tugs/toys are used a lot in rewarding agility exercises once the dog has the basics. Obviously, some dogs never enjoy said things and have to stay on food, but it's better to reward in a similar drive as the one you're working in, and food drive is very different than prey/working drives. Food is used to teach initially, and then change over to tug/toy.

Any questions, feel free to ask or email me. There's yer homework!!!

O, one final thing. Teach her where her rear is. Most dogs think their rear follows their front. Having knowledge of their rear will greatly help on things like weaves, dogwalk and teeter. Teach her to walk backwards in front of you using a clicker and food. When she's got this down, lay some bars/poles on the ground (go to Home Depot and get 1.25" PVC pipe and cut it to 4 or 5' lengths to make ground poles) on the ground randomly a few inches apart. Teach her to walk forwards and backwards through the poles......this will give her a good awareness of her feet.

Put a ladder on the ground and walk her through it, luring at first (keep your hand LOW at her head level) and then getting her to run back and forth through it, with you tossing either food/toy rewards at the ends. This will also give her awareness of her rear feet.

Final hint: when tossing food rewards, have the food in a pouch or go to the hardware store and ask for one of those "nail containers" that is a clear tube with colored ends and a slit in one end (Clean Run sells them as "food tubes", they're cheaper at the local hardware store). Use the pouch or the tube to hold the food and toss. This way your dog isn't wasting time hunting for food bits on the ground (and subsequently rewarding itself for doing so).

[BostonRott]

Some stuff on weave poles:

The problem with SITG weave poles is that you are not teaching a dog to weave so much as you're teaching the dog to push through the poles. The fact that he's breaking poles emphasizes this. He's not weaving, he's shoving his body against the poles and barging them out of the way. This is HORRIBLE for the shoulders. Dogs have ended careers early b/c of shoulder injuries from repetitive weave pole slamming.

Whether or not you ever intend to compete, the point is that this is very injurious and it is my opinion that stick-in-the-ground (SITG) weave poles have no place in the training of a Rottweiler.

Watch when your dog goes through...is the head up high, or is it down level with the shoulder? MOst dogs who barge have a high head, again forcing trauma upon the shoulder.

Several solutions:

a) when using a metal-based set of poles, do NOT stake them down into the ground. IF the dog is barging through instead of weaving, the poles are going to rock. Dog will learn not to do that.

b) Put pieces of re-bar in the weave poles, as long as the pole. Body slamming re-bar does not feel good (re-bar is down inside the PVC pole) and the dog will learn not to do that.

c) cut the weave poles in half, so that they are only 18" high. This will get the dog to start lowering his head, which forces his weight balance to shift backwards, lessening the weight/trauma on the front end. ALso prevents dog from barging through.

The only time my dogs see full height poles is at trials.

*******

I don't like the training wires one bit......one more thing to fade. See if you can find a set of channel weaves to use. They're EXCELLENT for building speed. Pull them apart a bit, and really rev her up....have someone restrain her, and you lead out to the poles, get her wound, and then have her released to the poles. Having them open a bit will give her the ability to really charge into them w/out having to focus too much on footwork.

Then start putting them back together, and keep the speed work up. It will take a bit to transfer to trial work.....dogs always revert to what they learned first (i.e. slow weaving) when under stress (ie. a trial). But given time and repetition, you'll see nice results.
*****

If you do a search on my name and jumping,I'm sure you'll find plenty more reading.

[MontanaRott]

Gretchen, if they decide to get serious after some classes, I will be burning up the phone lines with you! The gal that teaches this class teaches it as tho her students are going to compete, whether they plan to or not.
She has titled many of her own dogs of various breeds, and that is one reason why we signed up for her class.
Just in case, they like it, and want to compete, the CORRECT foundation will be in place.
We have learned our lesson about having to undo training and will never go down that road again if we can help it!

[BostonRott]

Does he already know a nose touch to a target? If not, work on that (using a clicker). Then start being able to send him to the target, and recall him to the target. This comes in GREAT use for contact work. Once he's doing well with his target on the flat, you can put it on the floor at the bottom of the stairs and have him come down the stairs and get into "touch" position. This will set the stage for the Aframe work (same angle). You can also work on how far out do you need to set the target to get him stopping where you want him (I like the rear feet on the last slat of the Aframe so that the back isn't "wrenched" too much.)

You can start this stuff now, and have a semi-foundation in place for the start of class. Have him tell the instructor that he does not want Guerin EVER running off the Aframe, that he must stop and touch first. This way, Guerin will think there is NO other option. You can initially reward by food at the target (rewarding in position), and then once that's understood, reward with a release to MOST FAVORITE ALL TIME toy (or tug).