Prong,choke, or gentle leader?

[Tracyd]

Well, Cannon is still on this earth. We have been working very hard with him in attempts to re-socialize him. He is doing well, but still has fears. He was neutered yesterday and recovering fine.
My question is about collars. I have always used a prong, with great results. I spoke to a trainer the other day, and she suggested that with a fearful dog, the prong may be doing more harm than good. She suggested a gentle leader and a clicker. I have never used a gentle leader, and have been told you cannot make corrections (quick snap). Does anyone have any advice on using the gentle leader with a nervous dog? I am currently using a choker. It is okay, Cannon will respond to a correction, seems to be more relaxed, but I feel like I have less control, meaning that he responds quicker with a prong.

[Judi W]

I see no reason to add the anxiety of changing from the neck (slip or pinch) to a head halter if you are doing fine on what you are using. The head halters are often depressing to the dogs and they spend more time trying to get it off than they do learning. It is confidence in knowing what is expected of it that is of the greatest benefit to a worried dog. If you are communicating that and getting great results with the pinch, stay with your success.

The idea of less compulsion for a fearful dog is most often a mistake as it can leave too much of the decisions to the dog, who is not good at making decisions and would rather defer to the person it has confidence in. Calm and confident authority takes that worry of decision making off the dog's shoulders.

[Tracyd]

Thanks Judi for your input. I have gotton so many different suggestions for dealing with Cannon. Some say he's fearful, others say "reactive", then others say cautious. They all amount to the same type of behavior, and probably changing to a different type of collar would not really make much difference anyway, just wondering if anyone has had any noticeable change with a halter as opposed to a pinch or choker.

[mrsgrubby]

I don't know which collar you should use, all types of collars are great training tools if used properly.
I used a choke on my 1st rottie and a gentle leader on my second rottie, both dogs had great success.
A choke did not work on my second rottie and the trainer suggested a gentle leader and showed me how to use it. I loved it, and now I can work with this dog on any collar I choose because she now is trained.
Your dog trainer is the expert and if they offer a good reason to try the gentle leader and are going to show you how to use it, then what will it hurt?
Judi is right though, many people don't receive proper training to use them, and they end up falling off the dogs, or detracting from the training session.
Without knowing your dog I will refrain from any suggestions other than talk directly with your trainer.

[Judi W]

But, this was not her trainer that knows her and the dog, it was "a trainer" - and probably a store type who although they call themselves trainers, aren't really by any experienced views.

[miccmill]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I see no reason to add the anxiety of changing from the neck (slip or pinch) to a head halter if you are doing fine on what you are using. The head halters are often depressing to the dogs and they spend more time trying to get it off than they do learning. It is confidence in knowing what is expected of it that is of the greatest benefit to a worried dog. If you are communicating that and getting great results with the pinch, stay with your success.

The idea of less compulsion for a fearful dog is most often a mistake as it can leave too much of the decisions to the dog, who is not good at making decisions and would rather defer to the person it has confidence in. Calm and confident authority takes that worry of decision making off the dog's shoulders.

I can attest to this.

We went back to a Halti briefly at the suggestion of our trainer who does know her and thought perhaps the head control offered would increase her inhibition to growl, fire off etc. This did not happen and her affect changed. She really shut down. Everyone agreed the Halti wasn't for her at this time and back to the prong.

For our Hannah, it is ultimately the authority that gives her confidence. She's counting on us for the decisions and I think the Halti threw her for a loop.

[SABELLESMOM]

When Marty was hospitalized last May-June, both girls really got out of practice...primarily leash walking. Two dear friends, convinced me to try a Wayne Hightower harness (SENSE-ible harness, and SENSE-ation harness).

No, they do NOT encourage pulling as the leash attatchment is in front on the chest. Corrections are made with a relatively gently upward pull, which makes the harness tug in behind the elbows. Practically instant success!

You DO need to measure the dog carefully and make sure all 3 straps are adjusted properly. If you feel insecure, you CAN attatch the leash to the collar as well as the harness. But I have never found it necessary. I believe the SENS-ible had an in between size (M/L) that the other two didn't stock.

Both my girls now have and use them. My husband (recouperating) is able to walk either girl without retraining them or having them drag him down the sidewalk. And I use it on Raven when we go to our agility class. She gets so excited going she wanted to drag me inside the gates. Now she waltzes in calmly, and I don't have to spend an extra 5 minutes patiently teaching I expect loose lead walking here too.

[Tracyd]

Judi, sorry I wasn't clear about "the trainer". She lives on the next street, knows Cannon, and my situation. We have worked with her a little, and she has given some good suggestions, and thought that maybe a different approach would work better for him. I would in no way take suggestions from a store type trainer in dealing with this dog!!! LOL
Thank you for sharing your experience Sabellesmom, and miccmill.

[Judi W]

Good. Well, if you are not making progress, certainly you can give it a try. My experience however is that the amount of time spent getting the dog to accept the head halter could better be spent. But it won't cost you anything other than the fairly inexpensive equipment and time.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

When Marty was hospitalized last May-June, both girls really got out of practice...primarily leash walking. Two dear friends, convinced me to try a Wayne Hightower harness (SENSE-ible harness, and SENSE-ation harness).

No, they do NOT encourage pulling as the leash attatchment is in front on the chest. Corrections are made with a relatively gently upward pull, which makes the harness tug in behind the elbows. Practically instant success!

I have a question about this harness re: having the leash attached to the chest....doesn't any tension on the lead, especially when the dog is determined to pull, result in them swinging their butt out perpendicular to you, rather than staying in a parallel position beside you?

[SABELLESMOM]

Originally Posted by moondog

I have a question about this harness re: having the leash attached to the chest....doesn't any tension on the lead, especially when the dog is determined to pull, result in them swinging their butt out perpendicular to you, rather than staying in a parallel position beside you?

I've never had it happen. Rather odd way for a dog to walk, if I understand you correctly? Even so, the correction would be the same. An upward pull results in the straps just behind the elbow creating a touch of pressure, momentarily. It works.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by SABELLESMOM

I've never had it happen. Rather odd way for a dog to walk, if I understand you correctly? Even so, the correction would be the same. An upward pull results in the straps just behind the elbow creating a touch of pressure, momentarily. It works.

LOL...you are understanding me correctly, it is an odd way for a dog to walk!

Visualizing the way it works, it seems to me that in order to give the correction you are describing, the dog would have to be AT your side, meaning no forging (or pulling) ahead. That's why I'm wondering if it's really a viable tool for a determined puller. Once the dog gets ahead of you, it seems with any tension on the lead, physics would make the front end turn towards you at the point of connection (the chest), throwing hindquarters out. That means a very short, taut lead, doesn't it?

[Judi W]

A gentleman in my neighborhood walks his GSDs on those and they do appear to work as advertised regarding pulling.

I would not however recommend anything that distorts natural movement by applying pressure on a joint area, particularly the front which is such a complex area.

[SABELLESMOM]

It still works when or if the dog pulls ahead or when the lead is taut. But, they learn a nice loose lead is best. The strap rests on the chest on the (rib cage) chest, it does not appear to distort natural movement. Neither of my girls ever fought having it on or maybe I'm not seeing what you mean, Judi. It does not rest nor apply pressure on a joint.

The "tug" is so light you can do it with 2 fingers, which is very gentle. (no restriction breathing) I wouldn't have believed it myself until my friends put Blue's harness on Raven one night at practice. (I'd been thinking, "Yeah, right! Another waste of money.) It took less than 5 minutes.

[Judi W]

Don't mind me. The one I've observed might be different, but it appears to apply tension to the shoulders and the dog looks like it is restricting its front. I am a fanatic about free reach and drive. (I don't teach a wrapped heel position either)