Talking while heeling

[gomer9855]

Okay, at obedience classes, we're doing heel work. Frau already knows to heel, but could definately use some brushing up. However, my trainer is always pushing us to talk to our dogs and priase while they're in heel. He even made a point to take me aside and tell me to talk to her more while heeling.

I don't talk to Frau a lot when training, just commands and then praise when she does it right. Corrections when wrong (if it's something she already knows how to do).
Frau is very reactive to happy/high voices. If I talk and praise her while heeling, she gets all happy and bouncy and licks and pulls ahead, to the side, etc. Tell her to heel again and she falls back to my side. So I don't talk to her. But I keep getting instructed to.
And after talking to her for 45 min and getting her all excited, it gets old. And then she doesn't pay any attention anymore, so when I sit her in a heel, she doesn't look to me for a treat or praise becuase I've been yabbering at her for ten minutes straight already.

Frustrating!

[debbiej]

well, I suppose it depends on the dog, the owner and what you plan to do with your dog. some dogs respond well to happy talk, I think mine can be over excited by it. I kind of wish she were more animated when doing obedience, I started out using treats, and now unless food is involved, she is a bit unenthuasiastic. but talking all the time is a hard habit to break. I'm having trouble with it.

[Judi W]

I have had more than a couple of students that I instruct to limit praise to a very calm, "gooooood" and nothing more. Some dogs (more frequently the dobes) are simply too reactive to be able to absorb extra stimulation. Your dog and evidentially you know her better than the instructor who is using boilerplate recommendations. Just smile sweetly, agree and continue with what works best.

[Judi W]

PS,
Unless she is lagging or wandering...... and your instructor is trying to give you some tools to get her up and interested........

[gomer9855]

Okay. He's a good trainer, good credentials and all, but there's about 9 dogs in the class, and since Frau is the only one who is already trained (the rest are pups) he doesn't pay too much attention to her. But he has a great ability to looks over the instant we do something wrong!

I've also cut back on the treats, becuase Frau is just not really interested. The first night was like 'yeah! Treats!' and now it's like 'yeah....a treat...thanks'.

Also, when we're on walks we tend to have a rather fast-walk pace. Enough to get you breathing pretty good. So in class, with 8 other dogs, we have to walk slower, which Frau isn't used to. Sometime she gets a step or two ahead of me, and my trainer tells me to walk faster. Well, if I walk faster, I'll run over the shi tzu in front of me. So I just taught Frau to walk slower. Makes me look like I'm going faster.

[miccmill]

I think talking too much leads to repeating commands. I get better attention if I don't say anything but my command.

We have the same walking fast problem and bunching up with the dogs ahead of us. Also, we've just switched to a squeaky toy for heeling as treats have begun to lose their magnetism.

[Storm]

within the development a dog should learn to come out activate and "drive" by repeating this behaviour and association it becomes a "habit" and a means of working. This is the ideal development, in any effect, I personally don't like voice at all until a release at the end of an exercise. The problem with voice is that so many people use it to try and improve a not so good picture where the dog learns to become inactive in order for the handler to become active, big mistake as the dog switches off to switch the handler on. Another thing treats here and there are useless, what however is a necessity for good active interaction from the dog's side is a dog reactive purely from his side for a motivational stimuli, and by working within tight parameters an association is formed and a dog's way of working is cemented. Another big mistake when forming foundation is you never activate your dog neither beg for anything if your motivational approach is correct you have the power to dictate through absolutely being neutral which behaviour is favourable and thereby reinforcing it.

[Judi W]

What Storm said -

If someone is going slow in front of you - go around them! , do not slow your pace which will ruin your dog's heeling.

[debbiej]

"Another thing treats here and there are useless, what however is a necessity for good active interaction from the dog's side is a dog reactive purely from his side for a motivational stimuli, and by working within tight parameters an association is formed and a dog's way of working is cemented."

could this be expounded on por favor?

[Storm]

This is a touchy issue which is very long winded to explain, but plain and simple if food is going to be used then the dog must first go through an initial development stage where an association is created that when the dog comes onto the field you have his food with you and if he out of his own acknowledges you and "drives" no formal position at this stage, then he can obtain the food. One has to manipulate the food availability in other areas to heighten the food drive in areas that you require it. Once the association is in place the dog learns to react the same and more consistently as it progresses. If ones dog is as fat as a pig, gets two meals a day plus all the other little goodies in between and, and, and.........................then it comes to training and you whip out a treat, food reward, meant as a motivational aspect, the dog may scoff at it think well do I really even feel like it knowing hey I will get my normal fill, with gravy, when I get home and actually I am still quite full from this morning and well let me see...................................don't feed your dog for three weeks then produce a tit bit and he would prabably take off your hand.

Association is how a dog learns, you can't have a dog going onto the field just wafting, no attentiveness and handler talking, waving, jumping etc. to try and get the dog's attention, when my dog gets out of the crate he is bouncing infront of me activating for the food to be produced and he learns that this is how he obtains success by activating. For food to work the dog must learn that food becomes a necessity, he must learn that through constant activation and driving he obtains food consistently for that set period, of he doesn't come to the party, tough, he looses out. Once the asociation is there you have it set in stone. Without drive education with food and association a treat is useless and is a "end product" with no system in place conducive to it having proper meaning.

[Storm]

you also can't use the food to try and lift drive or attitude as the dog learns to lower drive to activate you into producing food. The idea is for the dog to give the highest level of intensity then the food appears so he repeats this behaviour to obtain the success.

[debbiej]

ok, mine is very food motivated, but I got it messed up. she does the apathy routine when there is no food. sigh

[Storm]

if one considers they train using motivational methods then watch the dog as you give the say "heel" command, if you do ten paces of heel work then reward for example, the exact behaviour the dog gives with you, in every instant, not saying a word is the behaviour the dog has learnt to obtain success in his head, whether lag, head down, try eat dog next door etc. etc.

I worked with a specific dog that had such deep foundation where the dog would almost shut down as through the years he had learnt that by doing this he was able to activate the handler. Dog slows down handler slows down, dog slows down handler looks back etc. one dog actually learnt that by sitting all of a sudden in the heel work the handler would hesitate and look back and so forth. How much is the dog giving from his side?

[Storm]

Debbiej, when do you produce the food normally?

[gomer9855]

Okay, I think I get ya. Frau is not about treats. She has never cared about treats. Frau is about squeaky toys. We were given an "absolutely not" to the squeaky toy at ob classes.

To Judi :
We heel in a line in class. The lady who owns the building breeds and shows, so she has the building set up like a show ring, with the rubber mats around the rim. I can't go around other dogs, or I'll be in the middle of the room and not in line for the exercises he wants us to do (sit, down, stay, etc).
I personally thought it a bad idea to have 4 large breed dogs and 4 small breed dogs. The small dogs are beat by the end of the 45 min, plus the big dogs have to slow down for them. And it takes longer for the owners to treat becuase they have to bend down and such. Should I maybe look for a large-breed only trainer next time?