The hardware debate - what about temperment?

[Lorrie]

I see many posts throughout the forums from people asking about the differences in "hardware" ... choke vs prong, halti's, harnessess, flat collars, E-collars etc.

And that is great .. discussion hopefully promotes education.

What I don't see in many/any of the replies is the mention of the dogs temperment as being a huge determining factor in the hardware choice. And in my opinion this is crucial.

For as much as a prong collar might be needed and/or work for you and your dog .. that severe of a hardware choice can substantially damage a softer dog. Especially if used incorrectly. It is much easier to start softer and work up as you and the dog require then try to undo the damage done by leading with the "big guns".

Once you establish what hardware the dog can emotionally and mentally handle you then address what the handler needs. We have dogs that are on prong collars because that is what the owners need ... not the dogs. Thankfully these dogs can handle a prong.

Does anyone else take into consideration the temperment of the dog when deciding hardware or do just you use what works for you?

[rottnelmo]

Originally Posted by Lorrie

I see many posts throughout the forums from people asking about the differences in "hardware" ... choke vs prong, halti's, harnessess, flat collars, E-collars etc.

And that is great .. discussion hopefully promotes education.

What I don't see in many/any of the replies is the mention of the dogs temperment as being a huge determining factor in the hardware choice. And in my opinion this is crucial.

For as much as a prong collar might be needed and/or work for you and your dog .. that severe of a hardware choice can substantially damage a softer dog. Especially if used incorrectly. It is much easier to start softer and work up as you and the dog require then try to undo the damage done by leading with the "big guns".

Once you establish what hardware the dog can emotionally and mentally handle you then address what the handler needs. We have dogs that are on prong collars because that is what the owners need ... not the dogs. Thankfully these dogs can handle a prong.

Does anyone else take into consideration the temperment of the dog when deciding hardware or do just you use what works for you?

I do. When I teach classes I dont just slap a corrective collar on the dog, show the owner how to use it and wash my hands of it. I make sure that the collar the owner and I have chosen is the correct one for that particular dog.

Elmo is exteremly weak nerved, so I rarely use a prong on him, usually a toggle type choke chain that is correctly fitted. *I* can use a prong on him, but I dont let anyone else use on with him because too severe of a correction will shut him down immediately. I, however, have not used one on him for a very long time.

Collars are like food or motivators, not all dogs work the same. Elmo is very food motivated, where as Ollie will work for praise. Need to evaluate each individual for what works.

Ps. GREAT post Lorrie!!

[debbiej]

you're right, it is so important I guess one just assumes it is a given. why try a dog on a prong when a chain correction isn't even necessary--when just the sound of just a few links of chain gets their attention. good thing to mention. I'd only use a prong on an adult dog who knows the commands but is strong enough and hardheaded enough to ignore other correction.

[spidey]

Excellent points! One thing I am learning as I train Rakki is how different he is from my past dogs, and it's teaching me to be more flexible with my training methods. He thrives with clicker training, and I use a Halti as needed to help him focus in very distracting situations. I think being flexible and listening to what your dog tells you is the most important thing, but it's also important to remember that HOW you use equipment is as important as what equipment you use. Even a flat collar can be painful and counter-productive if it's used by someone clueless and/or brutal.

[poohbearsmom]

Knowing HOW, WHEN, WHERE, and WHY we use certain training tools is extremely important. Excellent topic. Any training tool used incorrectly is bad. I look at it this way... The more tools I know how to use effectively and humanely, the better - more rabbits to pull out of the perverbial hat, so to speak.

Knowing your dog is the most important aspect of any training program - REALLY knowing your dog. Strengths, weaknesses, the whole shabang. This is why finding a trainer who is willing to try different techniques for different dogs, and continue trying until the right one is found is the second most important aspect of training. Finding a trainer who engages with dogs, and really tunes in to their individual needs can be challenging, but they're out there.
Most dogs are very smart... they learn easily, but most people fail in reinforcing the training properly, whether it's because of timing, inconsistancy in the training itself, inability to correct a dog effectively, the list goes on.... this is where some of these tools can be especially effective, as they aid in getting the message across in short order, and they leave a lasting (we hope) impression on Fido.

Visit classes, meet with training groups, ask questions... it's good stuff to do.

[Judi W]

On the knowing your dog. Let's put some of that responsibility on the owner please. Even in a class with themselves holding the leash, and excellent coaching, too many simply want it to "happen". The instructor can have a wide variety of tools in their idea box, be dead on, but it does little good when the handler doesn't do their part of the work (like listening). Many want the instructor to do their work for them just as they want a piece of equipment to do the work for them.

The cautions about depending on force are many. With a soft dog, you risk the dog simply giving up. With a hard dog, you teach it to simply absorb a higher and higher degree of force. (now where are you going to go?).

And, I would agree that it is not equipment, nor even technique which comes with much experience over many dogs and many years, but with a relationship and understanding.

[debbiej]

I like this discussion and it brings up a point that I would like to make because I've been thinking about it a while. I am a wimp when it comes to instructors, afraid to speak my mind. I usually err on the side of being too soft on my dog. With Boris I went the other direction, following the lead of an instructor who was too hard. The more I now see him maturing, the more I think he was just a big rowdy pup totally overwhelmed by all the stimulation of his new life. She approached him wrong, misunderstanding him and maybe the breed. I didn't disagree with her reading of him until things escalated about the 5th lesson. I gained a lot of understanding in how to train a dog, because she did give me some very good advice, but he is much more complex than I first thought. I wish I lived close enough to have some of you as our instructor.

[Lorrie]

Originally Posted by Judi W

With a soft dog, you risk the dog simply giving up. With a hard dog, you teach it to simply absorb a higher and higher degree of force. (now where are you going to go?).

Exactly .. it is SO much about the dog .. and knowing the dog and if the handler isn't perceptive enough the trainer should be.

[Lorrie]

Originally Posted by debbiej

I like this discussion and it brings up a point that I would like to make because I've been thinking about it a while. I am a wimp when it comes to instructors, afraid to speak my mind. I usually err on the side of being too soft on my dog. With Boris I went the other direction, following the lead of an instructor who was too hard. The more I now see him maturing, the more I think he was just a big rowdy pup totally overwhelmed by all the stimulation of his new life. She approached him wrong, misunderstanding him and maybe the breed. I didn't disagree with her reading of him until things escalated about the 5th lesson. I gained a lot of understanding in how to train a dog, because she did give me some very good advice, but he is much more complex than I first thought. I wish I lived close enough to have some of you as our instructor.

At least you had the ability to "see" this and made the necessary adjustments - most people don't. We train with multiple trainers .. of widely varying schools of thought. You have to take from them the parts that work for you and your dog.

Too many trainers do what I call "in the box" training .. where all the dogs are trained according to the same model. It MIGHT work for some breeds .. but definately not Rottweilers. You need to think "outside the box" and have a lot of tools in your toolbox. Most importantly you need to know your dog .. their threshholds and what they will work for.

[miccmill]

I appreciate this post. Being a definate novice with the weak nerved dog I've used 3 different training collars at three different stages with Hannah, all at the direction of our trainer or suggestion from someone at this forum.

I believe it's absolutely necessary to have a trainer who has come to know your dog and you and is actively coaching you, the handler, on the correct way to use any given tool. Each collar, used correctly does something really different and I couldn't possibly have figured that out without direction, and lots of it.

I've got a soft dog who sometimes just isn't. Fearful but capable of being full of it. Reactive but very apologetic for it. I've really had to learn about her and how to use training tools but at the end of the day, it's ME following directions and developing the relationship with her that gets her to follow the rules.
Under some circumstances, a meaningful correction can be delivered with my voice and/or a look so I consider those tools too.

[Judi W]

Ah but Lisa, you listened! Not everyone does. You've been very successful because you understood the fine points of working with your dog (our miss handicapped girl) but also respecting her enough in order to require that she learn to depend on you and your decisions. You are quite a special lady and as a result have turned Miss Hannah into a special dog.