Protective School

[jigandjim]

hello, i have 2 puppies and they r only 3 months. i work over nite and my daughter live with me and she is 13 years old. i would like to know where is a very good protective school. i live in new orleans,la.
I send alot of time with them doing the day. Me and my daughter been training them a alot(the basic:set,stay,heal,etc...). i know they protect naturally,but i want them to protect on command. can some one please help. this is very important to me.

Thank You

Jig and Jim

[JeanT]

Jigandjim, welcome. I hope that you will be able to read a lot of good information here about training your puppies. You have a misunderstanding of what your puppies (later dogs) can do by way of protecting your daughter and you.

The following lengthy explanation is from an excellent trainer who is a member of these forums, Mick Trainer:

" As I am one of the people who state that in the vast majority of cases a dog will not defend it's owner in a real life attack situation I will answer this.

Why wouldn't they? I will start with this. Why won't a Rottweiler defend it's owner from attack when all the books etc say that it will and they are a guarding breed after all? Well there is actually a number of reasons why they will not. In short they are "they lack the courage", "we inhibit them", "we teach them humans are superior to them", "you are asking them to take on an animal 2-3 times it's physical size", "Pack hierachy works against it".

Firstly it is due to the fact that most Rottweiler breeders no longer selectivly breed for the true strength that is required for them to handle the high level stress that is required to take on an animal 2-3 times it's size (do not under estimate this point). It is wrong to argue that "they did it once so they can now" when the selection criteria that was used to make sure these dogs were capable of it is no longer being used. In most cases it takes about 3 generations for this to deminish when people breed from the wrong dogs and as few test for it it is hard to select the correct dogs. In this case they simply lack the courage for such aggressive responces. You can believe all that you want that they do posses the necessary courage but sports like SchH and PSA etc show that they do not. Most SchH will tell you straight out that there are few that can handle and extremely few who really excel at the sport. Why? Because they lack the courage. Most Rotts now get their SchH111 by being locked in prey and whilst they look the part lack the real conviction to do the job for real.

Going further down this line we also control out dogs. We teach them that we are a superior animal and that they must follow our lead etc. This is reasonable as we need to control the dog etc. However in most cases the dogs form the association that humans are bigger and stronger and that they must be obeyed and that they do pose a real threat and that they can beat the dog. The dog learns that all humans are superior to it. This is why in most cases a novice handler can hand their dog over to a trainer and have the trainer handle the dog easily. The trainer can give a correction to the dog and it shows no aggressive responce and simply alters it's behavior. In this case the trainer is directly challenging the dog. Why does it not attack? Learned responce. Further to this we inhibit their aggression from a very early age. We rightly so teach them it is incorrect to bite. It is often difficult for them to over come their leanred behavior.

Further to this due to the fact that the dog is a pack animal also goes to why so many dogs in a real life threat actually attack the OWNER. A dog veiws the owner as the pack leader. Then this new person comes along and bashes the owner. The owner goes to ground. There is a new pack leader. This is something I see often and something I will illustrate in one of my actual cases I speak about. So just remember when you are relying on your dog to protect you if you are beaten and go to ground, look out. Even when we are talking about a trained Protectrion dog if it has not be trained to look for the owner and bite the other person look out. Our first real life night where we got people to go to ground the first 2 people went off to hospital as the dog took to them. On one of the Ed Frawley tapes there is a section where 20 odd police officers do the same senario with their dogs muzzled. Only 1 dog went for the right person. 19 went straight at the handler with the perp standing there.

In realism most dogs will bark and growl and a few will even take a nip at someone (most times from behind the person and down low but often like in the case you show on the hand or another part of the body away from the body of the person) and in most cases where the bad guy is scared of the dog this is enough but often this is not the case. Even in the case you speak of the guy got in his car and drove away. Clearly the injuries are very minor and the dog bite the hand which was enough for the guy to leave. Many people wil do that from a barking dog and most will from a small shallow ankle bite. But in many cases it simply is not enough. Not long ago someone here posted that their dog defended them by bitting the perps pant legs. No bite on the person but the dog got the leg of the gusy pants. The guy back off due to his fear of the dog not because of real defence. Also the guy was leaving already. Much ealer when the person is heading away then towards the dog.

Now for the experts who say that our rottweilers WILL NOT defend us in an attack, are there any actual real cases where a rottweiler DID NOT defend it's owner? Yep I persoanlly can give you over 100 but I will give you just a few. No locations/names etc will be given due to the personal nature of some of these incidents.

Guy (X) walking down a local bike track with his 3 year old male Rott. Male assalant jumps out from behind bushes and demands money. X refuses so assailant hits X over the head with tree branch. At the start of the incident dog barks but will not come out from beside X. X spends 4 days in Intensive care. Dog found 2 hours later by police officers over 1km from incident.

Young couple with 2 children home, 2 male assilants break in and hold them at knife point for 4 hours. 2 Rottweilers owned by the couple barked upon entry to the house. Male assailants soon quiet them by giving both a kick. Dogs later found at back extremeties of yard.

28 year old women out jogging with 5 year old Rottweiler. Starts to notice guy not dressed in Track suit etc is jogging behind her and getting closer. Dog also notices and is turning to look at man even gies a few small growls. YW starts heading for more populated area (she is in park land but broad day light). Assailant grabs young women from behind dog does get aggressive barking furiously but takes no bite. YW is raped and has several dog bites when found. Bites found to come from her own dog.

25 year old women home alone Sunday morning. Male assailant enters home and comes into bed room where dog and women are sleeping (dog on the bed). Upon the assailants entry dog leaps from bed at the person. Assailant backs dog off by swinging object at the dog (later found to be a knife). W raped multiple times. Dog urine later found in room.

Young women buys Rottweiler to protect her from astranged husband who is currently in prison. 2 years later upon his release he husband find women enters the house. Neighbours later remember the dog barking. Womens throat cut lucky to survive.

45 year old male purchases 3 year old Rottweiler male from local animal shelter to defend family after neighbourhood problems (next door neighbour threatened to kill them). He has 3 daughters. Daughter number one (16) takes dog for a walk to local park 4pm in the afternoon. At some time she is grabbed by neighbour beaten and raped. Dog hit by car running across the road away from the park area. Driven thankfully stops to give aid to dog. wonders where dog has come from but cannot see anyone. Dog dies but he later witnesses neighbour leaving park.

Man doing security work with 4 year old male Rott. (protecting car park stuff very light work). Male aproaches him and askes for time. As he looks down at his watch he is hit. Wakes up to find police over him. They later tell him he was bashed and kicked and that dog was hung over storm water pipe. Only survived as police put him down.

Rottweiler breeder in park with 4 of her dogs. Male approaches and tells her to keep her stinking, aggressive, good for nothing dogs away from her kids. Breeder quick to defend dogs says that she will but they are good dogs etc and he should mind his own business. This angers man who proceeds to hit breeder in the face. Dogs circle barking. One takes a small bite at back of males leg. He kicks at dog. Dog lets go and he leaves. Dogs very destressed and stay with breeder.

31 year old male walking 2 year old Rottweiler male. Small dogs runs up and bites the rott on the neck. Owner calls the Rott back to him scared he will kill the other dog. 2 females approach owner and accuse Rott of attacking their dog. Owner explains that it was the other way around and if they do not put the dog back on lead he will let Rott go. 2 females attack owner with tyre irons. Owner later found to have severe concusion, broken ribs and vertabrae, extensive bruising. Once again dog barked and run around the incident but did not bite.

And on a lighter note. After hearing similar stories one of my mates decides he is going to test his dog (4 year old male Rott) out. So one night he goes out and waits a few hours. He then sneaks into his house and climbs in a window near where the dog sleeps. He purposely makes a few noices. No barking. Upon entering room where dog sleeps finds dog hidding in laundry basket. When dog realises it is him he is much releaved.

These are real cases, all of which I have later either trained their existing dog or sold them trained dog. These are just a small taste of the huge number of similar cases. I could even give you an example of my brother and his home invasion were untrained dog didn't even bark.

In the end I doubt any of this will change your mind but maybe it will change someones. If you really believe that your dog will defend you go to a school where PP dogs are trained and ask them to test it. Chances are they will do it for free. In all my time of doing this for owners, 2 dogs have defended their owner and both later came up to be extremely impressive working dog. One of which I bought. In the vast majority of cases where a dog will naturally defend it's woner the dog posses a genetic make up where the dog shows non-classical aggression and would be considered far to aggressive for most owners. I can tell you about a Malinois who at only nine months defeded it's owner. But I will tell you also that later that dog bit the owner and in the end was too much for him to handle. The dog now lives with a professional full time dog trainer.

Belive what you won't but be prepared for it to go wrong. The courage required to take on an animal 2-3 times it's own size is a rare thing. In the modern era it is only apparent in about 5% of Rottweilers after training and maybe .02% naturally.

Mick. "

[jigandjim]

do u know what dog is a good protective dog????

thank u

[JeanT]

Maybe you can explain a little more about what you are looking for. A dog that will warn you or your daughter that a stranger is in the yard or near the house, so you can dial 911? What idea of a protector do you have?

[jigandjim]

well ,warning is good, but i want them to attack if some one get in the house.i do have other security things on the house (alarm,double bolt doors)but i know if someone want in they will get in. most strangers will not enter if they hear barking,but u might just have one person boldddddd enuff to enter anyway.

thank u again

[debbiej]

you have to think about what you want the dog to protect you from?
a killer? a killer would kill the dog.
a thief? a barking dog of any size can deter a thief because of the noise and attention of the barking.
A big friendly rottweiler can scare someone who is up to no good. they aren't bullet proof, they can't deflect a knife. Just what do you want a dog to do????

[LavenderRott]

It depends on what you mean by protective. Actual physical protection of my family is up to me and my husband. As adults, we are able to make decisions about who will or will not enter our home We make sure that our doors are locked at night and windows are secured. The dog barks at a car in the driveway or an unusual noise in the yard. This alerts me to check and see what is going on and I get to decide if I should open the door and let my mother in or call the police because someone is prowling in the bushes. (Or if I am feeling really cranky - I can call the police on my mother!)

To be really honest - no matter what the breed you never truly know how protective any dog is until someone actually breaks into your home. Most burglars (or others intent on harm) will avoid a house with a large dog or a barking dog. What they mean to do is best done with as little attention being drawn to them as possible.

[jigandjim]

can some one please tell me of a school in new orleans or near new orleans that is a very good school (attack, protect,obed.,etc.....).

thank u

[Cash]

Originally Posted by jigandjim

well ,warning is good, but i want them to attack if some one get in the house.i do have other security things on the house (alarm,double bolt doors)but i know if someone want in they will get in. most strangers will not enter if they hear barking,but u might just have one person boldddddd enuff to enter anyway.

thank u again

What do you ask from your dog that an alarm and double bolts are not giving you? Look, I live in Los Angeles, if someone is to get past my home security system, my motion detectors, lights and dog - then nothing short of the Terminator is going to stop a determined person from entering. Why on earth are you asking a dog to do more than you can?

[JeanT]

You are talking about Personal Protection Dogs. Not many dogs are suited for that. (Re-read the Mick Trainer quote.) Those that are are trained by very specially skilled trainers. It takes a long time. The last time I checked into it out of curiousity, the cost was $7,000-15,000.

If you go to someone who advertises that they can turn your dogs into PP dogs for a few hundred or even a thousand dollars, don't do it. They will beat and abuse the dogs to make them mean. If the dogs don't turn into scared wimps, they will turn aggressive. Aggressive to anyone, including you and your daughter. You will never be able to trust them. Your daughter is more likely to be killed by such dogs than to be hurt by someone breaking into your home. Several years ago now, I think in Tennessee, a young teenager and her girlfriend were alone in the house with the one girl's two Rottweillers. Something disturbed them and first they bit the girl they lived with but then took off after the girlfriend and chased her screaming through the house, biting and ripping her to death.

You have done a lot to secure your home. Your dogs will notice unusual noises and bark or in some way give a warning, though they have to get a bit older. (And when they are older they will have very big scary barks.) With all you've done to protect your home, no one will just walk in, it will take a little time and a lot of noise. Program 911 on speed dial on your telephone so your daughter only has to push one button for help.

I'm sorry you have to live with such fear. You should have a different fear if you leave your daughter with aggresive dogs. If by some chance you have enough money for a real Personal Protection Dog, then spend it on a move to a different place instead.

Most people, even really bad ones, are afraid of large, black angry sounding dogs becuase they don't know for sure whether the dogs will attack. Train your dogs to be loving, loyal family members and yes, they will have protective instincts about you and your daughter. They will make really bad and frightening noise if someone tries to break in, but you can't count on them to attack. (It is possible they would, but you shouldn't count on it.) Calling 911 when you or your daughter is alerted to something bad, that is the only sure way to get help.

[Judi W]

Fearful and timid owners end up raising fearful timid dogs that all too often become fear biters. Dogs take their information about the world from their owners. Cowardly owners teach their dogs to be cowards as well.

If there is genuine danger, and a dog is expected to carry the responsibility, best choice is a 3 year old or older professionally trained PP dog. Prior to that age, a dog does not have the maturity for the work so to even vaguely discuss such a job for little puppies is totally unrealistic. With the best of training and background they would not be ready for the job for several years.

[jigandjim]

i've read everyone comments and i thank u for them. but no one still haven't say anything about a good school in new orleans area.and (Judi W), i know puppies can't do the job. thank u for the help i will find a school on my own.

Thank You

JigandJim

[Platzz]

Jim - What these folks are tring to tell you is your plan is not realistic. I've had a simalar conversation at the gunrange with nice middle class people that think if they carry a concealed handgun they'll, "Be safe". They have a delussional concept that if they flash thier gun the bad people will run away. A truely Bad Man isn't afraid of a "poser" waving his/her gun in the air nor are they afraid of a gaurd dog.

Fortunately, those "boogiemen" are far and few between.

Two dogs barking WILL make any sane person think twice about breaking into your residence. More important is the Mini-Pack dynamic you are creating raising two puppies at the same time. I appreciate your concern for your daughter's safety. I think you'd be better off putting that protection training money toward an adult sitter to be with your daughter while your're at work.

Good Luck.

[kywildcat581]

I have ilently been reading this thread as I do many and I have tried not to reply. But with this said I cannot any longer.

When thinking about purchasing a rottweiler I had to question myself of a few things. What do I want this companion for? Am I willing to devote a part of my life to teaching this dog right from wrong, and enjoying the times together?

With no offence to the OP I say this, people who buy these dogs straight from a breeder or decide they want a rott or any puppy to grow to be the protector in my opinion, about 90% of the time, buy them for the wrong reasons. This is not a liable reason to get a rott or any large breed and it takes a LOT of training to even have an attack/protective dog. By posting I say this..

When thinking about places that need guard dogs a lot of times, and that purchase them a few places come to mind, junk yards, drug houses, etc. These are places that are definately not suitable for one to raise a rott companion and they are hard bred to be mean, anything from being fed transmission fluid to raw meat on a daily basis because they want the security of the breed. This is inhumane. Not that I am saying these are your intentions at all, I do not see it being this way. But look into comparisons.

Any true to heart owner that loves their pet will be as willing to take a beating to protect the companion as the dog would for them. This should be a two way street. Me personally, I would step between Blitz and someone else for Blitz's protection and keeping him from one day being PTS due to an attack, and to protect the name of the breed. We have enough people out in this world already scared to death of this breed and the image needs to be addressed with love, not another accident, and this may happen. Think of it this way, when training a rott to attack, you better have it solid to stop first. And if these rotties are not very good OB dogs you may have just opened a can of worms that may one day hurt you or your family.

Please understand I am only expressing my opinion in the matter and I would agree with Platzz on getting a responsible babysitter for the children while at work, and enjoy your companionship with a couple warm hearted rotts when home. But either way it is your choice to make and best of luck on whichever you choose!

[jigandjim]

thank you'll again, i understand. and i found 2 schools in the area.it might be better if i take my daughter to the shooting range(lol). well thank u'll. time for the pups training(sit,stay,free,heal,down).

jigandjim