Aggression

[Cash]

Originally Posted by habitual

The trainers philosphy is this;-and I am not saying I agree or disagree this is where I am asking everyone's opinions

If you stop the aggression before it gets a chance to start, it doesn't mean that they will ever be able o live peacefully left alone together but that they can at least respect not to fight or get aggressive in front of us.

I hear the point, but I disagree with this methodology.
Nosing off, allowing them to get amped up then reprimanding for it with a wooden dowel - in my opinion- is not going to get you there.
I personally think it's escalating the issue.

[UnclLou]

Originally Posted by habitual

Why would the dog need to be put to sleep due to dog dog aggression?

If aggression can't be controlled it's not uncommon for people to put dogs to sleep; especially if they tear up enough other dogs.

[UnclLou]

Originally Posted by KarinA

Please tell me what the garden hose is for.

It's used instead of the piece of dowel that the original trainer suggested.

[Judi W]

Originally Posted by habitual

Why would the dog need to be put to sleep due to dog dog aggression? I would like you to explain to me please and thank you so I can understand where you are coming from.

I'll add a bit to this "why". Just one mistake about having a door latched, or forgetting that one dog is loose can result in thousands and thousands of dollars worth of not only vet bills, but medical bills to a person who might be trying to stop or separate the combating dogs or gets inbetween them. I know people who have suffered permanent damage beyond simple scaring, attempting to deal with a dog fight. A very good friend of mine with a darn good ScH III GSD, had his dog go after a leashed dog that was with an elderly lady. She fell and broke her hip and the resulting suit almost cost him his house. It did cost him his dog. The truth is, dogs that have elevated dog on dog aggression usually do not limit their targets and people are quite often injured in the frey. It is rather like living on a keg of dynamite.

It is quite one thing to teach a dog that it must ignore other dogs in passing or on the training field, but the pressures when there is strong animosity within the household are constant rather than momentary so they usually tend to build rather than diminish.

[debbiej]

some dogs will never get along, and can never be allowed together. some dogs can be trained to ignore the other dog/dogs as long as the situation is very controlled. two people, complete control of each dog. I can't say that I've gotten here, completely, but a dog under control of a leash and collar, can be trained to ignore another dog. two dogs loose in a house or yard, never. I have had two dog aggressive dogs who would fight if left near each other, walk in a civilized manner with me walking one, my husband walking another. (not my present dogs) some desensitization can be accomplished, but only based on the foundation of obedience.

[habitual]

Originally Posted by Judi W

I'll add a bit to this "why". Just one mistake about having a door latched, or forgetting that one dog is loose can result in thousands and thousands of dollars worth of not only vet bills, but medical bills to a person who might be trying to stop or separate the combating dogs or gets inbetween them. I know people who have suffered permanent damage beyond simple scaring, attempting to deal with a dog fight. A very good friend of mine with a darn good ScH III GSD, had his dog go after a leashed dog that was with an elderly lady. She fell and broke her hip and the resulting suit almost cost him his house. It did cost him his dog. The truth is, dogs that have elevated dog on dog aggression usually do not limit their targets and people are quite often injured in the frey. It is rather like living on a keg of dynamite.

It is quite one thing to teach a dog that it must ignore other dogs in passing or on the training field, but the pressures when there is strong animosity within the household are constant rather than momentary so they usually tend to build rather than diminish.

This is a lot to think about thank you. Will it still build if they are in the same household but kept separated?

[Judi W]

I tend to believe it does (although of course that is not carved in stone). When they are always in the presence frustration builds because this rank thing never gets settled. Of course letting it run the course of getting settled can also lead to a dead dog depending upon the character of the individuals involved.

[habitual]

Originally Posted by Cash

I hear the point, but I disagree with this methodology.
Nosing off, allowing them to get amped up then reprimanding for it with a wooden dowel - in my opinion- is not going to get you there.
I personally think it's escalating the issue.

When this method is used the purpose of it is to correct the dog(s) before they get amped, so at the first sign of anything they are suppose to get a whack.

Now, could his philosphy ever be achieved in different manners, or would I be chasing a lost cause?

I am still unsure of my opinion on the whole matter, you guys/gals are great here and it s really helping me form one!

[Judi W]

Sparring with Rottweilers is generally accepted as being a very bad idea in spite of the good intentions.

[Cash]

Habitual, basically everything Judi said. Of course there are no "lets all happy roll in green grassy pastures" solutions here. But it can be manageable. What you need help with is a determination about what manageable means to you, and your dogs.

[BostonRott]

Originally Posted by habitual

When this method is used the purpose of it is to correct the dog(s) before they get amped, so at the first sign of anything they are suppose to get a whack.

What I tried to tell you earlier is that "the first sign" will be LONG before they are even close to "nose to nose." You'll see stiffening, hackling, growling, etc when they are still many feet apart. It doesn't "just" start as they get nose to nose. AND adding your own aggression (hitting) to the situation is going to put it into fast foward and you'll elicit a lovely fight. If the dogs are on leash, you've removed "flight" from "fight or flight" and they WILL fight.

Several times I have chronicled the saga of what happened here with my husband ending up with $30,000 worth of emergency hand surgery (and 2 fingers that still don't bend correctly), and one dog in the ER, and another permanently placed. This was after 18mos of total separation and one split-second of forgetfulness. Search on bitch aggression, you'll find the posts. Living with separated dogs is NOT something to take lightly, and no, they never get better.

[UnclLou]

Never say never. I've worked with a couple of DTD's (Dog To Dog aggressive dogs). One was a confirmed dog fighter that I rescued. He'd been in several fights and had avoided giving lethal bites only by luck and fractions of an inch. At the time I had three other dogs in my home, none of whom were DTD aggressive. I used the protocol that's on my website that I developed for Crittering. He never learned to play with the other dogs but he tolerated them for the rest of his life. I'd leave them alone when I went to work for up to 12 hours and there was never any trouble.

I have some video that I'll be happy to send to anyone who wants to see it, of someone else's dog who "used to be DTD aggressive. It shows her playing with the dog that she wanted to kill and you'd never know that this dog was once DTD. This owner, just a hobby trainer, not a pro, used my crittering protocol and had great success. It might work for this problem as well.

[Judi W]

Don't know that anyone used the word "never". I know I did not

[Bucky's Mom]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Living with separated dogs is NOT something to take lightly, and no, they never get better.

I wouldn't even attempt to live like this - Gretchen's story of that dog fight and the subsequent damage to her husband is etched in my brain

[BostonRott]

I did and I think that 99% of inter-dog aggression does not get better and to suggest that an owner whom one has never evaluated try an internet article to fix a dangerous problem comes across as irresponsible to me.

Any articles/books that I've read on the topic also show that once a dog reaches a certain level of biting, chances of rehab are poor.