Stand for exam

[BostonRott]

So now that I'm taking a forced break from agility, our obed training isback in high gear.

Working on the stand for exam. How do you make it clear to thedog that fet arenot to move, and that a step forward is incorrect? I'm not sure I buy into the theory of putting bells on elastics on their legs.

Vik will stand on command and holds it pretty well, but then as I go back in to reward or release, she'll move one foot. I know to release her backwards (i.e. not forward out of her stand) so that she's not anticipating a forward release. Just seems to me that this is one of the more basic exercises of the Novice routine and is definitely NOT somewhere that I want to lose points on.

Also, thinking to Xcel....curious to hear how you guys start this exercise. With Vik/Ban, I was instructed to start with a "sit for exam" and feed as people come in to them (without causing them to break the sit), so that they know that people approaching are a good thing.....not that either ever seemed to worry about this, but it was what I was taught.

Look forward to people's suggestions. :)

[Patty1231]

We first did this on lead, standing beside the dog as the trainer came in; then came in and placed hands on dog, and eventually to us standing in front of dog still on lead (after giving the stay command before stepping out) until the proper distance was achieved away from the dog. A light correction and "ah ah" for any movement and this was one of our easier excercises to get down.

[BostonRott]

Part of my problem may be that I've never taught/used stay commands, as I find them ambiguous and haven't figured out how to clearly explain them to a dog. When others leave their dog and say "stay," I repeat the position command (sit, down, stand).

Right now, I'm handicapped by Em's feeding schedule and am not attending classes, just working on this stuff myself. Figured I won't try for someone to actually go over her until she can hold a very solid stand.

Once I get back to a drop-in class schedule, we'll start working with your suggestions, thank you!

[MontanaRott]

Phil got Steve to do it, by getting him to stand from a sitting position, saying to Steve, "stand" putting the palm of his hand against Steve's nose and saying, "waaaaaaait", then taking a slight step, Steve holds still, gets a "goooooooood booooooooy", ANY movement of a foot, got an "AH AH", and the foot was placed back in postion and they started over. As he got better, Phil moved out a bit farther. He picked it up very fast and now has a rock solid SFE.

[2rotties2luv]

My instructor taught it in steps. First the stand-stay on leash with the handler at the end of the leash facing the dog. Then the instructor or helper would walk up to each dog and allow it to sniff their hand. An "Ah-ah" and/ or light leash correction was given for foot movement. When the dog had this down pat, the instructor would let the dog sniff, then walk around behing the dog both ways. When this could be done with out the dog moving, the instructor would approach the dog, let it sniff, walk around behind, and put his hand lightly on the dog's back. When that was solid, he would add running his hand from the top of the dog's head down their badk to the tail. The instructor would then add one thing each class while repeating all of the prevoius touches first, until the dogs had a solid stand-for exam. My dogs all seemed to catch on quite quickly as to what was expected of them and what to expect from the examiner. It's also important to have different people as helpers so they get used to different people doing the exam.

[BostonRott]

Part of my plan is to go up to a busy area (grocery store parking lot perhaps) and have anyone who wants to go over her do so....but that's far off.

Question on the leash corrections.....which way are you correcting? Towards where you are standing? Usually when I leash correct, it's towards where I want the dog to be....ie a leash correction for sit would be straight up, for down would be straight down to the ground.....so should I be correcting "backwards" (away from me)....correcting back towards the dog's butt, away from me? (boy, am I making no sense or what??)

[2rotties2luv]

My trainer had us step on the leash, with the leash in the space between the shoe's sole and heel, so it could move freely. Then when you pull up on the end of the leash, it would pull down on the dog's neck. Since the dog has been given the "stand" command, he knows he isn't supposed to lie down. I don't know if this is the best way to do it, but it worked for my dogs. Actually though looking back on it, I think I used a verbal correction more than a leash correction.

[Judi W]

I'd rather not see any pressure from the leash once the dog is standing. My suggestions:

Putting the dog into the stand. With leash attached under the dog's chin so one does not accidentally give the pressure that means sit, right hand about 20 inches from the snap, move the hand straight forward (which will become your stand signal) while giving a long drawn out "stand" command, have the dog moving forward and at the same time gently place your left hand in front of the thigh, stopping the rear from moving forward and getting the dog back into a sit. Do this very calmly and quietly. Then just freeze everything for a few seconds. You want the dog's head to be parallel to the ground which helps maintain that stand position.

If you don't want to use a stay command, at least use the signal which helps the dog understand not to move forward. (this will be important when you get to Utility). Train this until you see the dog understands the stand itself.

Then you will start pivoting to the front of the dog, just as you initially taught the sit stay. Pivot back to the side. Never release from that position, but heel the dog forward before releasing after a pause (count to 5) while you are back in heel position.

Gradually increase the distance. Don't be in a hurry with this and don't hurry for having someone do the touching. I use a very mild verbal if the dog starts to move and not a leash correction. Any leash correction is going to have the dog moving which is not what you want or worrying. Dog moves, just go back and very calmly replace it then leave again. The pivot and the signal only for a while before increasing distance which is done gradually.

This is a hard exercise because the dog has been doing a sit all its life when in a similar position/relationship to the handler. Corrections at the early stage tend to make the dog worried and then you will get instant sit (when in doubt - sit, "sit is always good" is part of a dog's mantra).

The next difficulty for the dog is when the handler starts going around the dog to return to heel position. I just gently place my hand on the side of the dog's face to keep it pointing forward so it doesn't turn into a hoop trying to follow with a look.

After this is solid, then you can add the touching, but move back to being directly in front of the dog at the beginning. If necessary, you can gently hold the muzzle straight forward for a while so the dog doesn't turn to greet the person.

I personally am not fond of people who think it is a good thing to stick their hand at the dog's nostrils before the touching head, whithers and back. An overdose of smelly hand, and the blocking of the dogs vision is not part of the stand for exam. (check out the rules). It does nothing to guarantee that the dog is going to love the person. This exercise is not a social exercise or love fest. It is an obedience exercise and quickly done. Person acting as judge should be business like rather than acting like a long lost friend there to do a petting. Approach should be at an angle from the dog's quarter left front, touch head, whithers and back with their left hand and leave. Period.

Make sure before you leave your dog that the feet are decently placed and not left in an uncomfortable position so the dog is tempted to move them for balance. You can take all the time you want to do this as the scoring does not start until you give your stay signal (and/or command). Make sure your hands are off the dog and that you are standing upright in heel position before you give your signal and step away My personal opinion particularly for this exercise is that if it helps the dog and is allowed by the rules, use it! (command and signal) but I understand your preference. The reason you should use at least your signal is it lets the dog know when the positioning is completed and the "don't move" part starts.

[hcelsa]

Originally Posted by BostonRott

Part of my problem may be that I've never taught/used stay commands, as I find them ambiguous and haven't figured out how to clearly explain them to a dog. When others leave their dog and say "stay," I repeat the position command (sit, down, stand).

While I agree that stay commands should not be necessary for sit and down stays (though I do think it's nice additional information to share with your teamate...I guess I think about it as a short way of saying "just to let you know this is that thing were you'll be waiting in a line with all the other dogs for us humans to come back"), the stand is a bit different in that you're first asking the dog to get up from a sit (initial "stand" command), then you can move their feet/body into whatever standing position you actually want to leave them in. The trick is that once placed they aren't allowed to move . One of my herding pals (who's also put multiple UD's on dogs) asks the dog to stand, fixes feet when necessary and then on her departure she commands "freeze". For her dogs "freeze" basically means do not move from where I've placed you until released. I plan to use this command with Breve too, as it feels quite descriptive of the exercise .

Oops...I was going to add more about how I've trained this, but I see that Judi has now basically explained almost exactly what I do . Glad to know I'm in good company on this one .

One more thing...I'd avoid anything other than mild verbal corrections as much as possible on the SFE. I've see WAY too many dogs end up with handler created problems on this exercise, usually caused by lack of patience/pushing the dog to perfection way too quickly (physical/collar corrections in a dog that just doesn't completely get it yet create a worried outlook rather than one of confidence).

[BostonRott]

So you use your right hand straight out from your body as the signal?

I have been using my right hand, with my arm across my body, flat palm to dog's face, almost like a stay signal. For the stay signal, I use left hand in a fast motion like I'm going to bop the dog on the nose.

[Judi W]

The reason for bringing the hand forward in front of the dog's face not your own body, is that it mimics the motion the dog is to follow in order to step forward into the stand. I tend to use the right hand for both but whatever is natural and comfortable for you. Slow down your stay signal as well. I use the fast signal (your nose is going to be bomped) for the moving stand in utility as that is a very brisk exercise and the dog is already on its feet and moving forwards so what I want is an adrupt stop. I think you risk having the dog pull back from or at least not move into the signal if you use that rapid might get bomped signal for this exercise, which puts it into or keeps it sitting. The stand requires that the dog move its front forward with only the rear holding place and remember, there is no rush for getting the dog into the novice stand position.

[dmoniz]

I use my left hand I used to put it in front of his face and actually bop his nose and he would stop. He started getting it confused with the down hand signal which is more straight down ontop of his head. My trainer suggested I do more of a wave in front of his face (palm towards him move hand to te left infront of his face). It worked great and he no longer gets confused.