Prong Collar .. side debate

[Lorrie]

As a "side bar" to the posts regarding prong collars .. I have a question or just a general topic for discussion about them and training.

I have noticed a lot of favorable posts here and find that that echos the pretty general sentiment across dog world for those that use them .. usually for leash work or other aspects of behavior people are lacking control with.

When people are commenting on how the dog "knows when the collar goes on" that they are "working" and are therefor behaved .. the obvious assumption is that the dog is NOT well behaved on any other type of collar .. and in some instances this is explicitly said.

Then - my question is - Is the dog really "trained"? I would say not.

Training to me means the dog knows and understands the command or behaviour asked of them. They should be able to complete it on any type of "hardware". Whether they choose to is a completely different story.

The fact that the dog doesn't pull on a prong yet does on a different collar only tells me that all the dog has "learned" is that one involves pain. In this instance a prong collar is efective because it causes pain (discomfort .. whatever you want to call it) .. you can conclude that the dog has learned nothing. That there is no real "training" involved.

Don't misunderstand my position .. I am not "against" prong collars .. I think they are very effective tool in the hands of someone that knows how to use it properly. I also think the fact they are as effective as they are give some people 1. The false sense that their dog is trained ... and 2. A reason to be lazy and not train the dog properly.

What I hate to hear is a dog that went on one at 5 months old and is still on it at 3 yrs old. I am thrilled to see so many people have been successful in using them for what they are .. a training tool .. and moved on.

Thoughts??

[Miabella]

I think you are right, prongs should not be used as a crutch but as a tool. There is a reason why the AKC doesn't allow them in the obedience ring, it is not because they are cruel but because you should not need it by the time you get to that level. Ilsa only wore a prong for about 3-4 months when I first adopted her, it hasn't been out of the drawer for years.

[Judi W]

Lorrie is correct and our other Laurie is correct about the rules as they apply to show grounds. The logic statement is that a dog should be sufficiently trained to behave on a normal collar or it does not belong on a show site.

[MonteRiehl]

Originally Posted by Lorrie

When people are commenting on how the dog "knows when the collar goes on" that they are "working" and are therefor behaved .. the obvious assumption is that the dog is NOT well behaved on any other type of collar .. and in some instances this is explicitly said.

Hi Lorrie,
I wouldn't make that assumption. I will agree that it may be true for some.

I have had several dogs that "change modes" depending on which collar/harness you put on them.
For example, when the nylon slip collar goes on, my pup know it's conformation time, and tends to stand in a stack. (not always, but it's a noticable trend, working on that)

When we are out walking the neighborhood, or going to obedience he wears the prong. He heels, and walks and watches me like a hawk. When he gets closer to 99% reliable, we will switch to a choke chain, perhaps.

Around the house, he wears a flat leather, and knows that he has to listen, but the rules are slightly relaxed compared to when the prong is on. It's also the collar we use to work on tricks. Play dead, roll over, speak, shake a paw, etc.

I have 2 harnesses I am now introducing. One is a pulling harness, where he is expected to pull and tug. This is for carting, or pulling a sled. One is a tracking harness, where he is expected to be out on the end of the longe line and sniff around alot (casting).

I expect that he will also recognize what he's wearing, and then behave appropriately. Just like people. They behave differently in jeans than they do in suits.

Just my $.02
Monte.

[spidey]

I'm glad you posted this Lorrie. Too often people don't use training devices AS training devices, and then sometimes the training device (or method) gets a reputation for being "useless" when in fact it was simply not used as a training device (or method).

That said, I do think that in certain circumstances it's not unreasonable to keep using such things in certain situations. My sister is small, and her dog is large. Her dog is very well-trained but tends to get a bit exuberant on walks, so she walks him in a prong collar simply for safety, for "just in case".

[MonteRiehl]

Originally Posted by spidey

I'm glad you posted this Lorrie. Too often people don't use training devices AS training devices, and then sometimes the training device (or method) gets a reputation for being "useless" when in fact it was simply not used as a training device (or method).

Now this is a sentiment I completely agree with! Brilliant insight. Never would have occured to me to think about it this way!

Thanks Amanda!

Monte.

[HerculesMomma]

Originally Posted by spidey

I'm glad you posted this Lorrie. Too often people don't use training devices AS training devices, and then sometimes the training device (or method) gets a reputation for being "useless" when in fact it was simply not used as a training device (or method).

That said, I do think that in certain circumstances it's not unreasonable to keep using such things in certain situations. My sister is small, and her dog is large. Her dog is very well-trained but tends to get a bit exuberant on walks, so she walks him in a prong collar simply for safety, for "just in case".

I would agree with your comments spidey. Although I'm not to the point where I feel comfortable saying my dog is very well trained, but he is trained. I'm doing the prong as my training tool in class and outside of class as a "just in case" measure. We've improved enough that we can do the flat collar for walks now without it being a disaster, but I do like the extra phsyical control it gives me.

[LynnS]

Sometimes I use a prong but only in a training situation where there are a lot of distractions and other dogs. Basically in situations wehere I am trying to proof behavior. I doubt Belloa ssociates work with just that collar as we train in all her collars (she has quite a collection of flat collars) - sometimes she even trains naked (I had to add that just because it sounds funny LOL)!

[damp]

Originally Posted by MonteRiehl

I have had several dogs that "change modes" depending on which collar/harness you put on them.

Sure the equipment signals different kind of work and nothing wrong with that, but something is wrong, if different collars or harness etc. has any influence on the dog's behaviour and lack of responding to commands.

The result of years proper and correct training should be a dog who listen to you, and it “outgrows” the training tools, no matter if you use clicker, gentle leader, prong or choke.

Originally Posted by Miabella

There is a reason why the AKC doesn't allow them in the obedience ring, it is not because they are cruel but because you should not need it by the time you get to that level

I was astonished when I for the first time watched a CGC test, and saw dogs were allowed wearing prong collars (even they were way too large and placed incorrectly)

Originally Posted by spidey

Too often people don't use training devices AS training devices, and then sometimes the training device (or method) gets a reputation for being "useless" when in fact it was simply not used as a training device (or method).

Scrolling through all the pictures here, it’s more an expectation than the rule to see a prong collar correctly fitted.

Can I suggest an activity for the Rott-Stocks??? Instruction in how to fit and use collars!

[Rottlva]

[quote=damp]



I was astonished when I for the first time watched a CGC test, and saw dogs were allowed wearing prong collars (even they were way too large and placed incorrectly)

[quote] Blasted thing! I can't quote correctly right now!

Prong collars and head halters are not allowed. I am ashamed you saw this!!

[Judi W]

Don't know where you saw a CGC with dogs wearing prongs, but it should not be.

I would suggest that those of you that are using equipment to inform your dog what commands mean, start using your voice and command words instead. I believe most of these dogs are smart enough to learn that. Around the house, use informal verbage if you are doing something more relaxed but I would still want the formal word to mean what it says without running to the closet to get out a special collar. That appears to be a silliness and to disrespect the dog's ability to learn. The purpose of training is to instill verbal control. Yes, it takes a long time for that to be perfected, but I would not ditch the idea for reliance upon the equipment.

[damp]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Don't know where you saw a CGC with dogs wearing prongs, but it should not be.

At Rott-Stock and I have pictures.
(Sorry I forgot... what Happens at Rott- Stock stays at Rott-Stock )

[RottiMomCT]

Originally Posted by damp

At Rott-Stock and I have pictures.
(Sorry I forgot... what Happens at Rott- Stock stays at Rott-Stock )

I saw it too - but I believe that once the evaluator saw that the dog had the prong on they were informed they had to remove it and they started the test over again. This was only after the dog had already jumped on the evaluator during one portion of the test - for which the dog should not have passed...

She was a strict evaluator - wanted very good obedience from the dogs when they were doing the 'out for a walk' portion of the test (nice heel position, about turns /left & right turns had to be good)...it's not an obedience test, it's a manners test

[Judi W]

I was going to suggest a literacy test prior to the CGC. "All tests must be performed on leash. Dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars made of leather, fabric, or chain. Special training collars such as pinch collars, head halters, etc. are not permitted in the CGC test. We recognize that special training collars may be very useful tools for beginning dog trainers, however, we feel that dogs are ready to take the CGC test at the point at which they are transitioned to regular collars"

[damp]

Originally Posted by RottiMomCT

I saw it too - but I believe that once the evaluator saw that the dog had the prong on they were informed they had to remove it and they started the test over again. This was only after the dog had already jumped on the evaluator during one portion of the test - for which the dog should not have passed...

She was a strict evaluator - wanted very good obedience from the dogs when they were doing the 'out for a walk' portion of the test (nice heel position, about turns /left & right turns had to be good)...it's not an obedience test, it's a manners test

Florida Rott-Stock 2003