Collar/harness usage preferences

[Tonielle]

Are the people who would use choke chains and prong collars and other methods within that 'category' in the majority here?

While I understand that rottweilers are a large and often very strong minded (and bodied!) breed of dog I am surprised to find the use of prong collars so common.

Perhaps this is due to the circles that I move in or the country I live in? I don't know.

I prefer the lupi, halti or the standard collar combined with muzzle (if necessary) and reward based training when confronted with a dog that is hard on the lead or suffers from anti-social behaviours.

Do you use prong/shock/choke collars or NEVER or a mix of both?




(having said this I do understand two things with regards to prong/choke etc... 1) They aren't meant to 'hurt' the dog and 2) they are commonly misused and misunderstood and ARE used incorrectly and irresponsibly and DO hurt the dog!)

[MonteRiehl]

Hi Tonielle,
I think a common mis-conception about the prong collar is that it's a sadistic pain training device. It's actually an engineered device. It's very difficult to injure a dog with a good prong. Good prong collars have rounded points, made of a sturdy material that won't deform under pressure, and at least triple chromed.

Before we started using a prong, (this is my first) my wife made me put it on my neck, and receive a correction for her peace of mind. The collar was not uncomfortable, as it's appearance would make you think. The correction also didn't really hurt, but was not a pleasent experience. The thing I don't like about prongs is the "springy, clingy" feel. The prongs stick in the fur like a brush, and don't "flow" around the neck as easily. The cling thing.

I avoided Halti's because they were originally designed for horses. (modified halter) A rottweiler has a different physiology than a horse, and I've read a couple of studies about neck injuries caused by a halti. I am pretty sure you could find a thread about that in the search. I'm not saying it's happened to me, or it will happen to you, it just spooked me off.

I have a harness that I intend to use for Tracking and SAR that is similar to a lupi. It's flat leather, and has a differnet activity associated with wearing it. I will also probally use a electronic collar if I ever progress to serious open field work.

I use treats at motivators and lures to help "kick start" the learning of a command. It speeds up the process. I quickly move away from them because I want him to do the commands even when there is no treats availible. Praise and pets also don't spoil in a pouch like a treat does. I also always have praise with me.

They are all tools, and have a place if used correctly. The important thing is to know when and why you are using the tools.

My pup is now nearly 10 months old, and loves his prong collar best. He flips and jingles it around like a teenager showing off his "bling bling". When he has his flat leather collar on, he's always figeting with it, and scratching at it. He just doesn't like it as much.

I hope this helps.

regards,
Monte.

[StephanieandToby]

I know I have just been lucky with the dogs I walk. It is very rare for me to walk a dog that really pulls on their leash....Although I initially used a choke-training collar on Toby, once he walked nicely he only wore his flat, buckle collar.
My favourite collars for walking dogs are the "Martingale" type....there is less of a "choke" but the chains make a nice snappy jingling sound for a correction.
The odd time I get a large dog that has a prong-collar. They work beautifully, and I am grateful they were on the dog at the time.
For very small dogs, I prefer a harness. No harm to their necks and in an emergency I can bend over and pick them up "like a suitcase."

Each dog is different. I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" collar, provided they are used correctly.

[Tonielle]

Thanks for the insight into your training methods and I am eager to hear of more. I've always thought of dog training (and horsebreaking and learning how to live with a cat etc... ) as a hugely varying field of work.
Agree or disagree with what I'm hearing the knowledge is almost always useful!!

For the record, I only use a gentle leader!! on a trained dog for a couple reasons - 1) It is treated as a muzzle by the gardai and this means that I can walk my 'restricted' breeds without a conventional muzzle if I wish 2) Dogs can easily slip back out of a halti (something not everyone knows!!) and 3) The potential for injury in a dog pushing or freaking out.

Just saying that so people know I'm not using them irresponsibly!

;)

Toni

[MonteRiehl]

Hi Toni,
I think I heard that there is a law about prong collars in most of the UK, prohibiting their use.

The rott.net forum is brilliant, and I am addicted to it.

I know that in some european countries, dogs are welcome almost every where, (stores, rest, malls, etc) but they typically have to be muzzled. Especially the large breeds.

I seem to be multi-tasking to much today, and cannot spell, use grammar, and type correctly. Apologies!

eye kan spell reel good today!
Best regards,
Monte.

[frontierrots]

I have not used a prong in years.

Bea only uses a choke/slip collar in conformation and a fur saver for german style shows, otherwise just a buckle collar. (except when walking on a hike, then she has a harness)

The rest of the dog have cotton slip/choke collars for walking but only because they are not as well trained as Bea (bad Diane) Molly (since past) used a Gentle Leader for casual walks as did our Pit and Darla had to use a Gentle Leader because she had a bad heart and would pass out if she pulled on her collar

[Tonielle]

Yes, prongs are illegal in some places. I never checked as to whether they are here in ROI because I wouldn't have a reason to. I will now though !

Many places in europe are indeed great about pets etc, Ireland is NOT one of them.

GSD's, pit bulls, rottweilers, and many many other breeds are considered 'restricted' and must be muzzled in public as well has have someone over the age of 16 in control with a lead no longer than six feet.

I believe this is down to irresponsible ownership, training and bad breeding but follow the law (most of the time!)

Also, I was speaking of gentle leaders when I said 'halti' (which I also use). Silly girl, brain was lost somewhere along the line today, must retrace steps (hard to do without a brain!!)

Toni

[Judi W]

The people who usually need to use a prong are those who did not get their leash work done when the dog was young and suddenly woke up and discovered they no longer had a puppy they could control physically and were attempting to manage a large dog who had not been properly leash trained. In those cases, they usually need something to provide that extra bit of authority while they try to make up for lost time.

It is fraudulent to claim that the prong doesn't hurt. The entire reason it adds authority is because it does hurt and thus the dog attempts to avoid the corrections given with it. It does not do an injury, but yes, it does hurt. Otherwise the handler might as well stay on the buckly collar.

My personal dogs are trained and worked with a common slip collar. Nylon in conformation and chain in other venues. Herding they wear a buckle collar or no collar. When I was doing tracking I used a non-restrictive tracking harness, carting uses a carting harness (well I guess that could go without mentioning)

[Jamie & Odin]

I use a prong also. I adopted my dog when she was two years old, VERY strong and a horrendous beast on the end of a lead. She was overly exuberant about meeting anyone she could, play with every dog she saw, and don't even get me started on the joys of chasing any small creature that moved!

For HER safety, the comfort of others and my own piece of mind, I used a prong right from the beginning with her.

But yes, I trained her in the pleasantries of NICE walk. Now, I still use the prong, just because she is an exciteable girl, but I very rarely have anything but a loose lead with her. She will, however, do a little dance without pulling when she sees a squirrel in close proximity

I do not like halti's at all, and yes I have used them. Both the rottweilers I have owned would come running when they heard the jingle of the prong and sit so nice to have it put on. But i remember my first dog turning his head every which way while I tried to put that darn halti on, no matter how many times we had used it.

[MonteRiehl]

Originally Posted by Judi W

It is fraudulent to claim that the prong doesn't hurt. The entire reason it adds authority is because it does hurt and thus the dog attempts to avoid the corrections given with it. It does not do an injury, but yes, it does hurt. Otherwise the handler might as well stay on the buckly collar.

Hi JudiW,
You got me on something I quaffle about. I really wouldn't describe the sensation as hurting when I recieved a correction. I would also never describe it as a nice feeling.

Momentary sudden constricting discomfort? Surprisingly annoying attention grabber? Yup. Can't get those experiences with a buckly collar. Also completely impossible to ignore when it happens.

I don't really have a word that describes (my experience)well. Pain\hurt is not the word. Pleasure is also not the word. Certainly much more towards pain than pleasure.

I also would not expect to use it in a competition, or a event. Rules are there for a reason.

Best regards,
Monte

[Rovers mate]

Harness for me,sorry i mean my dogs

[Daisy Duke]

Originally Posted by Judi W

The people who usually need to use a prong are those who did not get their leash work done when the dog was young and suddenly woke up and discovered they no longer had a puppy they could control physically and were attempting to manage a large dog who had not been properly leash trained. In those cases, they usually need something to provide that extra bit of authority while they try to make up for lost time.

Judi-- I feel exactly the opposite way. I have had daisy in a prong since she was 4 months old so that I dont wake up one day with a dog I can no longer control. I am working with daisy to get her to a point where she will behave in a buckle collar. I feel it is much better for the dog for it to correct itself with a prong than for you to sit and try to overpower it with a buckle right from the start. If they learn early on in a prong, that will stick with them. The only problem with that is when that is the only collar people use, and the dog gets used to it.

Originally Posted by Judi W

It is fraudulent to claim that the prong doesn't hurt. The entire reason it adds authority is because it does hurt and thus the dog attempts to avoid the corrections given with it. It does not do an injury, but yes, it does hurt. Otherwise the handler might as well stay on the buckly collar.

As for this, I can attest to the fact that the prong causes no pain, only discomfort. when working with young puppies, like I have been with daisy, the chain piece under the neck will give a correction like the bitch tugging on the scruff of the pup's neck, which also helps in establishing your role as pack leader. the pup will think that since you give corrections like mom, you must do other things like mom, and therefore, he should listen to you and treat you like mom.

Sorry if you still dont agree, but this is the first time I have really fealt strongly on a subject on any of these boards, and now you know how I feel.

[Judi W]

You use discomfort in the same manner many doctors do. We would differ however in the technique of pretending to be another dog, mother or not. I never pretend to be a dog. If a dog needs correcting (which I find is very rare with puppies if the handler is clever), I want them to know it is I who was displeased.