Hard to find good agility facilities (sorry long)

[groupieindenial]

Maybe this is because this is my first time owning my OWN dog, but I seem to not be content with many of the training or boarding facilities I go to, or talk to. My first trainer, since I had no experience with any of them in my area, I tried to follow her philosophies, and teachings thoroughly. Ya know, don't knock it till you've tried it. I know a BIG pet peeve of trainers, is the attitudes of owners. We're either in denial about our dog's behaviour, or just don't like being trained ourselves (cuz its us the owners that are in training, not our dogs. We train our dogs with the methods taught in class.) I still got the feeling something was not right, and even with Vegas at 4 months, this lady was leary of him. This woman was obviously not fond of the breed, and dealt mostly with small dogs, which in the end was the ultimate reason for switching. ALso, I had a problem then, and her advise was making things worse. I only fixed it with help of this board, and the confirmation from the new trainer. So, I'm happy with my OB instructer, and plan to stay with her for ongoing OB.

Now, we're into agility. I tried to have faith in this one place, because they owned a Rott themselves, and had a wonderfull facility, with nice new equipment, wonderfull rubber flooring, and an outdoor area for the summer time. I'll admit now, I had an odd feeling about the people, but thought "hey, they're serious competitors, so they expect the same level of commitment from their pupils". We did really well with the excercises, even other people in the class who have other older dogs that compete, commented on how well Vegas was coming along. One issue, his prey drive and controlling his want to chase dogs running by in class. The only advise they had was to contact a behaviourist. She is away, so no help there. I took the advice I got from this board, and explained what I planned to do to help control this in the next class, and was hoping of a response of support. Instead, I get this email indicating that if I fail to control him in class, that we will be excused with no refund. So I ask, what warrants being kicked out? ANd the response was if Vegas shows aggression towards any person or dog. WHAT??? That was not the issue? SInce when is prey drive considered aggression!!?? HE has not shown any aggression towards anybody, and the instinct to chase I thought is just that, prey drive. I felt so let down. Shame on them coming from people who raised thier own Rotty. It now makes me wonder what sort of problems they had with her, because I know that they OB train using corrections prolly old school methods, and not purely positive. (Whcih there is nothing wrong with corrections, but a definate balance is required). I feel like they were setting us up to fail. If they think prey drive is aggression, then there's no winning here.

So, I'm on the hunt for another agility place. HARD to come by in my area. One place I will not even consider, from the attitude I got on the phone when I was searching for a boarding facility. I got dead silence when I told them he was not fixed, and a Rottweiler. A place was recommended by my OB instructor, and they LOVE rotties. I go to the place last night, Rott pictures EVERYWHERE! She doesn't own a rott, but she said they all love the breed. So that makes me feel welcome. I liked that she's a certified bahaviourist, so this prey drive issue is not going to be misinterpreted, and properly dealt with. I told her to contact my trainer, she Knows Vegas well, and he was the star pupil in class. So I like her, but the facility itself isn't great. It has carpeted flooring, creates two problems. Vegas will want to try and mark even more, from trapped smells. She says they put down jumpingm mats before and after the jumps. THis doesn't seem very efficient to me. Maybe even distracting to the dog, learning to jump with and on the mats, and later not having any mats at all at trials and such. No outdoor summer facility, just this indoor place. She also has never competed in agility herself before, only flyball. SHe says shes just been involved in teaching, and conditioning star pupils for competition. She teaches up to masters, gamblers, and snooker.

I found this lady on some list (i forget where, but I think as a contact for planning a regional trial) so I called her because she's not far from here. She does not advertise, and does classes with common people she knows in the agility world. She competes, I found her name listed in the top ranks, so I know she's good. AND her indoor facility is in a barn, and has an outdoor facility for summer starting in later in May. I'll be meeting her this weekend, so I'll get a better idea if I like her or not.

So do I go with the one recommended by my OB, even though I'm not thrilled with her facility. She has never competed in agility, but did so with flyball. Would I be able to work with Vegas wearing a belly band? Her classes start in a few weeks, so I'd love to keep vegas moving. The private one starts in a few months, and I was hoping to do a transition from her to the private one. The private one is really cheap compared to the others. Is it bad to keep switching places?

Sorry so long, but your advice is appreciated.

[Judi W]

Well, seems there is something wrong every place. That is what you will have to sort out for yourself. I will however comment upon the marking. You can indeed expect your dog to refrain from marking, be vigilent and correct when he thinks that is what he is going to do. Even at outdoor facilities no one wants a dog lifting his leg on the course or the corners of the equipment or............

[groupieindenial]

OH I was not implying that the marking is not going to be an issue outside courses, but the outdoor set up will be better on his joints, and we get to spend time having fun outside. Last night we stopped by the pet store to practice attention. Unfortunately he got a quick one out, but all in all I was kind of impressed. I was able to keep his attention pretty well in a really distracting place.

[Judi W]

OK, you were not initially kicked out. You were told that until your dog develops more self control, he is not going to be allowed to move on to a more advanced class. That makes sense to me. In our training groups we have many dogs, especially youngsters, that stay at a lower level several times while their mental maturity has a chance to catch up with their skills. The other handlers and dogs' comfort must be a consideration and if he is still lunging after other dogs when they are moving rapidly (which is what agility is all about) then he is not yet ready for the more advanced class. Make no mistake, prey drive - predator - prey. Prey is something caught for dinner so when someone sees their little dog being considered prey by your rather large dog, they are smart to be concerned.

So, my suggestion would be to relax a bit about how fast you want to advance, and modify that to match your dog. A dog that is lunging after the other dogs is not quite ready for prime time until you and your dog learn to manage this so that the other handlers and dogs need not feel intimidated or threatened.

Back up, don't be in a hurry, don't take things personally and understand that prey drive in itself is not always benign and that not everyone else is going to be reassured because it is labeled prey drive.

[groupieindenial]

Is prey drive "agression"? I'd say about 2/3 of the dogs in class lunge and bark in the same way, when a dog zooms past. Vegas' bark is louder is the only difference. I don't disagree that its something we need to work on, and yes, as he matures I know it will get better. It will not get better soon if we don't deal with it though. They didn't even give me any advice on how to deal with it. We're obviously not going to compete till we're ready, but he's not acting any different than most of the dogs in class. I just feel like they were setting us up to fail, giving no advice, and laying out the threat to kick us out if he what? Continues to bark and lunge while being forced to stand there and do nothing while dogs zoom past? If we're kept busy, he's not going to do that. (The private lady says the dogs are never expected to sit and watch other dogs zoom past, which will be good for us!) Its not a problem that is going on through the whole class, just a minute here and there, when we're expected to do nothing. I don't see how staying in that same level class is going to help, he's great with the handling and excercises, and would still have to be around other dogs. I think the statement was in general. Well, regardless I don't feel like they are being very supportive. I've done whatever they've asked, I've come out to watch trials. Took the initiative to seek advice about how to deal with this, and expressed how I could implement it into the next class.

Honestly, I just want to learn how to properly teach the equipment so we can practice on our own. I'm planning to build my own equipment, and as he progresses take another class or workshop (there is this really good place that hold week long, or weekend workshops for those who are serious competitors, but it's like 2 hours from here, and incredibly expensive.)

I also want to keep him doing SOMETHING, because he's a better dog all around if he's continually learning and working. I could just go right back to OB, but that does not start till JUNE, and I'm not comprimising trainers. I want to do something until then.

[Judi W]

Is prey drive "agression"?

If you are the prey instead of the predator, it sure can be.

I'd say about 2/3 of the dogs in class lunge and bark in the same way, when a dog zooms past. Vegas' bark is louder is the only difference.

Actually there can be differences and they are not all perception. A couple of them. One is barking in excitement. Another might be lunging and barking in an attempt to go after the running dog. One might be a small dog easily restrained by the owner. The other might be a large and powerful dog with some question as to the ability of the owner to manage it.

Both Gretchen and I gave some suggestions as to what you can do in those down times. Down times will occur in any class situation so the dogs do need to learn to manage themselves and exert self control when they are not on stage or be put up.

[groupieindenial]

Okay, so maybe I am taking this too personally, and over analyzing this. I just want to make the right decision of what, or what not to do next. Yes, you both have given me great advice, and your advice to others never fails.

For the record, his bark is a high pitchy annoying playfull bark. THe same bark he barks when Zeke his buddy won't play with him.

I didn't interpret his behaviour as aggressive. To me aggressive is associated with vicious barks of "Wanna fight?" Or if the dog looks like he wants to tear out a new hole. Vegas doesn't even respond to dogs barking "aggressively" at him, let alone wanting to start a fight.

[hcelsa]

Behaving aggressively toward things percieved as prey (and fast moving other dogs would be an example) is still a form of aggression. Predators want to catch, bite, kill and eat prey...generally biting and killing involve some aggression!

If I had a small dog and there was a large dog of any breed barking and lunging at it while we were working I'd talk to the owner or instructor about getting the dog under control (heck...I've done the same when another dog has been barking/lunging at my Rottweilers in agility...and they aren't even small), if no action was taken I'd probably ask for my money back and find a class where the instructors and other dog owners did a better job of keeping there dogs focused appropriately.

In a class situation it's up to you as the owner to keep your dog otherwise occupied while other dogs are doing exciting things. Believe me...I have to work VERY hard with my dogs on this...and at 13 months Breve still forgets herself occasionally and if I'm not doing my job at keeping her focused she occasionally will leap/bark (and yes, it's generally a high pitched bark--like what a dog who's nearly caught the rabbit it's chasing might use--which I'm sure scares the crap out of a little dog who thinks he/she might BE the rabbit) at fast moving, slinky or extra bouncy dogs running past. It's up to you to be more exciting...I've found it very useful to redirect that prey response into a game with me (as a result my older dogs often quickly spin into me looking for a toy to grab to redirect themselves when something really exciting whizzes by be it a dog, cat, sheep etc).

[Judi W]

[quote=groupieindenial]........... Yes, you both have given me great advice, and your advice to others never fails. ........
QUOTE]

Actually, we offered suggestions and one of those was to crate the dog. I believe you had reasons for not doing so. Crates there were too small for you to use and you can't bring your own? if I recall.

So, I was on this thread simply attempting to help you understand where the others might be coming from and why they might be limiting what you want to do. It is easy to say that the Rottweilers are treated differently - because they are! The responsibility of owning one is more demanding than for most other breeds. It comes with the territory.

[groupieindenial]

[quote=Judi W]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

........... Yes, you both have given me great advice, and your advice to others never fails. ........
QUOTE]

Actually, we offered suggestions and one of those was to crate the dog. I believe you had reasons for not doing so. Crates there were too small for you to use and you can't bring your own? if I recall.

So, I was on this thread simply attempting to help you understand where the others might be coming from and why they might be limiting what you want to do. It is easy to say that the Rottweilers are treated differently - because they are! The responsibility of owning one is more demanding than for most other breeds. It comes with the territory.

No I don't have a problem with crating. AT the time I only had my giant crate that didn't come apart. I picked up a smaller crate in the meantime that does come apart. (yes, I am proactive) THis place had crates throughout thier facility, i was asking to use one of theirs. Not an issue anyways, I have one I can transport with me. I was willing to crate if needed for a few minutes here and there as suggested. YES I do take your suggestions and apply them.

I don't have a problem with the responsibilities of owning a rottweiler. I feel I am taking all the necessary steps to ensure he is well bahaved, gets proper training, and that I don't oversee any behaviour problems. I do however have a problem with a training facility that does not offer support or advice in common issues they see every day.

[Judi W]

Although they might know how to teach agility, that does not mean they are going to be able to assist you with basic control and what they see as behavior issues. We often see the same thing in a show polishing class. The instructor there is quite adept at coaching as to what is expected in the ring, where you will lose points, handler tips and so forth, but will say right out, they are not there for behavior issues and that those need to be straightened out elsewhere. I am sure this is why the agility instructors recommended a behaviorist. It is not their field of experience or knowlege.

[Brooke&Ryan]

Our agility instructor is also our OB instructor but when dogs enter agility she expects them to have basic manners well in hand. She will excuse dogs if they mark more than once. After our third OB class, she felt that we were ready to begin agility & that Julius had a strong grasp of the basic commands that were needed for agility.

There are typically eight to ten people in the class & we usually get 3 to 4 runs of the course per lesson. It's not fair to the other classmates to have to wait while the trainer is dealing with a behavior problem with another dog. Needless to say, this will happen from time to time...but it is frustrating for the other classmates when the same dog is racing around the course & the owner cannot call the dog back to them....or the dog is peeing all over the course. It's just not fair to the other people who are enrolled in the class.

Our trainer gives each dog that she has not worked with in OB class two preliminary classes to make sure that the dog is ready for agility which I think is fair.

[groupieindenial]

Originally Posted by Brooke&Ryan

Our agility instructor is also our OB instructor but when dogs enter agility she expects them to have basic manners well in hand. She will excuse dogs if they mark more than once. After our third OB class, she felt that we were ready to begin agility & that Julius had a strong grasp of the basic commands that were needed for agility. .

THat would have been ideal to have my OB the same as my agility. Not common around here. Agility folks tend to not be strong OB people. The only agility place that I found that did both, is the behavourist one. What you said makes me believe this is the better route.

Originally Posted by Brooke&Ryan

It's not fair to the other classmates to have to wait while the trainer is dealing with a behavior problem with another dog. Needless to say, this will happen from time to time...but it is frustrating for the other classmates when the same dog is racing around the course & the owner cannot call the dog back to them....or the dog is peeing all over the course. It's just not fair to the other people who are enrolled in the class..

Understood, but he does come when called, he is focused when DOING something, and does not urinate if he's doing something, kept busy. None of this has ever delayed the class whatsoever. Once he starts barking, I try to play tug, or do exercises away from the group.

Originally Posted by Brooke&Ryan

Our trainer gives each dog that she has not worked with in OB class two preliminary classes to make sure that the dog is ready for agility which I think is fair.

This is why I want to first allow the trainer to meet us, see Vegas and how he's like before entering their class. His OB is really really good. I don't know how that stands in preperations for trials, I'd like to get him his CD soon. I'll soon find out, when we go for level 3 in June.

[LynnS]

[quote=Judi W]

Originally Posted by groupieindenial

........... Yes, you both have given me great advice, and your advice to others never fails. ........
QUOTE]

Actually, we offered suggestions and one of those was to crate the dog. I believe you had reasons for not doing so. Crates there were too small for you to use and you can't bring your own? if I recall.

So, I was on this thread simply attempting to help you understand where the others might be coming from and why they might be limiting what you want to do. It is easy to say that the Rottweilers are treated differently - because they are! The responsibility of owning one is more demanding than for most other breeds. It comes with the territory.

Just to echo this thought...I have enrolled in a variety of obedience classes with Bella and we were definately scrutinized more than others (and she is a young female so I can imagine that would be worse with a full grown male).

Additionally, I have found once I have worked with someone for a respectable length of time they are much more helpful in all areas. I really believe that like most situations in life, when you are new, it takes a while for credibility to be established.

There is one instructor in particular that intimidated the crap out of me and at the same time barely gave Bella and I the time of day. I really wanted to quit that class many times but it was such a good class (and it was indoors and 10 minutes from my house) that I stuck it out. After six months or so the instructor really warmed up to us and the class was not as intimidating. I still go this class every Wednesday night (in addition to more formal private instruction) just because Bella and I enjoy it so much.

[Brooke&Ryan]

Originally Posted by LynnS

There is one instructor in particular that intimidated the crap out of me and at the same time barely gave Bella and I the time of day. I really wanted to quit that class many times but it was such a good class (and it was indoors and 10 minutes from my house) that I stuck it out. After six months or so the instructor really warmed up to us and the class was not as intimidating. I still go this class every Wednesday night (in addition to more formal private instruction) just because Bella and I enjoy it so much.

I agree, Lynn!

Ryan's aunt, who is our trainer, scared the crap out of me at first. She really pushed my buttons but she knows her stuff. I had to take some real deep breaths with her....but after our third class or so she really started warming up to me & Ryan. I think she really wanted to see if we would stick with it, especially because we are college students.

We've stuck with it & now she's wonderful! Sometimes dog people are just not people persons either. But maybe a bit of warming up time is needed.