Remote collar provoked a bite, trainer disagrees. What now? (very long, sorry)...

[SamL]

I have a 5 yr. old neutered male who was involved in his first bite incident yesterday. The dog is typically fitted with a TriTronics remote collar which was on at the time. Here are the details:

The dog was with a group of about ten people at a social gathering in the home of a friend. We were all sitting on the floor. The dog was socializing well, lots of licks and butt-wags and eventually settled into the lap of one of the female guests.

The room was small and the dog was in the center of the group. The owner of the house walked into the room carrying something heavy and the dog went to investigate. Since space was limited and I didn't want the dog getting in the way, I issued a single command 'come' along with a collar correction (the collar was on a "3", typically the dog doesn't respond unless it's on a "5".) The second I hit that button, the dog took a jab at the nearest person and bit him in the side (the "love handles" area).

The bite was through a light jacket and shirt but nevertheless broke the skin and left bruises on the subject, though the lighting was bad and I didn't get a good look at the wound. I immediately removed the dog from the area and brought him home (I live down the street from where we were) and returned to assess the situation and speak to the subject. He was with a young woman (both were intoxicated, by the way) and they both confined themselves to the bathroom. I was not given the opportunity to inspect the damage and they only emerged after it was completely taped up.

Of course at this point, the woman starts egging the subject on with the typical "my father is a lawyer" line and I'm trying my best to choke back the fear-induced vomit that is coming my way. I'm in California where we do not have the "one bite" rule, and the population here is excessively litigious. I sat the subject down and attempted to negotiate with him. After some time we came to a verbal "gentleman's agreement" that the issue would be forgotten provided I helped with any medical bills (the subject has insurance so I believe my costs will be minimal) and provide proof of recent vaccines as well as bring the dog into a vet within the next few days to get a letter indicating the dog is in good health. I will also be taking the dog to a behavoirist for an evaluation and recommendation on a course of action.

The subject and I have been in contact today. He has been treated professionally for the bite and received a tetanus shot, and I am paying his co-pay and for the cost of replacement clothing. Since he is good friends with the owner of the home I was in, I believe I have been spared any major drama on that end.

Now, about the dog:

I took ownership of this dog when he was 18 months old. The previous owner was suffering from major health issues and could no longer care for the dog. She classified him as "sweet and loving" but "protective and driven" which was proven during the first few months of ownership. The dog is a butt-wagging wuss but has a high prey drive, loves to chase, is a "wandering sniffer" and persistent leash-tugger on walks and has expressed dominance issues. He also exibits signs of dog aggression towards other large breeds. He has never aggressed towards a human except for barks and growls at strangers who approach my front door, which I believe is acceptable for a Rottweiler.

The dog was introduced to remote collar training using the No Limitations method about a year and a half ago, and has done remarkably well (better than any other method of training I've used to date). However, in the recent past the dog has exibited obvious signs of disdain for the collar and will snarl and occasionally nip when corrected in certain situations (for instance, if he's 'beamed' on another dog or enamored with a scent and doesn't want to leave it, or other situations where the dog desires to be dominant). The trainer has been persistent in "keeping on the dog" and not letting up on the collar. I am not typically one to question the authority of a trainer especially when I have witnessed firsthand the collar transforming awful, even vicious dogs into manageable companions, but the approach of pushing the dog to the point of aggression towards ME seems asinine. Am I wrong for questioning this?

The trainer was made aware of the incident today and was remarkably quick to dismiss the collar as the reason for the bite. The response was along the lines of "because he is such a dominant dog, he would have aggressed regardless of the correction, whether it had been verbal, a prong collar, or what-have-you". I am inclined to disagree and feel that the trainer is mostly attempting to protect their interests and method of training. The last thing I'm sure they want is for me going around telling everyone how much the remote collar sucks and that I believe it provoked a bite.

So I now have a dog who has now proven himself to be unreliable and aggressive in situations where he is in unfamiliar territory or feels his dominance is challenged while being corrected with the remote collar. Due to the dog's obvious aggresive reaction towards the collar in the past, I FIRMLY BELIEVE that the collar was the sole reason for this incident and the attitude of the trainer is irritating, to say the least.

Folks seem pretty polarized on the remote collars. Some call it God's gift to trainers, while others believe in a more 'gentle' approach. I have seen remarkable results with these collars and certain dogs, so in many cases I would side with the collar. However, I am firmly convinced that the collar is not the "cure all" that the trainers purport them to be, and that it is probably NOT the best method for a highly driven, dominant animal.

To all you professionals out there, or those who may have used the remote collar on a difficult dog and had issues -- have you encountered a situation like this before where the dog reacts to the collar in such a negative way? Do you beleive it's right for the trainer to insist that I push the dog to the point where he's snarling and nipping at me and demand that I "keep on the button"? And finally, since this method has clearly failed and opened me up to massive liability, what should my next steps be?

I'm sorry this is such a novel but I wanted to provide as much detail as possible. I welcome any suggestions or comments.

[SamL]

I should add that during our conversation today the trainer suggested I consider putting the dog down! Is this even a reasonable thing to consider after just a single bite incident where the reason for the bite itself is in debate?

[Diva'sOwner]

Wow. I'm hoping more experienced people than myself will respond. I too have seen the collar work wonders. My dog was "friends" with a Dobie who needed one. This Dobie had a problem with his come from long distances, chased prey without returning, was dog aggressive, and also hated men (he bit several). The collar seemed to correct all of these issues, for a while he was sweet as pie. The one thing it didn't correct though, was his aggression toward random men. The Dobie, like your dog, also figured out that the correction was coming from the collar. Once he figured this out, I believed he felt that he could overcome the pain/sensation. The "shock" was no longer this mysterious thing so he took his chances and still went for the men. Now, I don't have any solutions for you, but I did want to share this story because maybe collars don't work as well when it comes to aggression toward people. But I'm sure others will post...

Also, when you did the correction, did you say "no" at the same time? Some trainers suggest that. And I'm just curious about how your trainer has you doing the correcting.

[Skuly]

Wow, sorry about the incident. I was wondering, why did you give a correction using the collar at the same time you gave the command to "come"? Did you expect the dog not to respond on the command alone? Also, when the person was walking through the room with the object, was the dog "going for it" or just needed to move out of the way?

[BostonRott]

This trainer is so full of it his eyes must be an amazing shade of brown.

WHY would you shock a dog after giving a command without giving time to respond? And WHY in a group of people??? I understand how the collars are used to train, I don't need any explanations of timing of correction vs. constant stim. I want to know why YOU did it.

I have worked with collars in the past and this makes no sense. The collar offers no direction to it's correction and if the dog is fed up with it and feeling he received an unwarranted correction (which he did), he's going to lash out.

I personally see no use for this type of training. I do see a use for collars and have used them with success. A dog who does not respond unless the collar is on a 5 is a dog who has been abused by the collar. 5 should be a level only needed when a dog is in extreme drive and walking across a room of people is not extreme drive.

If you feel this dog is only controllable by a remote collar, he has NO business being in public.

[spidey]

Exactly what Gretchen said. Corrections should be used when the dog a) fully understands the command being given and b) does not respond to the command appropriately when it should reasonably be expected to do so (i.e. when the command is issued clearly and the dog can reasonably be expected to have heard it). Why did you correct the dog in this case? Some dogs simply will not accept unreasonable and unfair treatment, and correcting a dog for no reason counts as both unreasonable and unfair, and from the sounds of it, that's what happened here. I think you're correct that the remote collar DID provoke this bite from what you've said.

[Judi W]

I agree with Gret.

Oh dear! What I am going to say will sound critical. Critical of the training philosophy and yes, critical of you for just following along with it in spite of the very clear evidence that it was counter-productive. Take this criticism as reinforcement and stimulation for a decision to change what you are doing and not as a personal or emotional insult please. Yes, your instinct about this occurance is correct and the wonder is that unfortunately you came to it so late even though your previous experiences gave you the same information, just a different victim (yourself). Too bad someone other than you had to be injured in order for you to accept it. You have certainly had this dog long enough that you should know him and his limitations and responses intimately. Does "typically fitted" mean this poor dog wear this collar pretty much constantly, getting stim hit with it on what must appear to him as a very frivilous things or for simply acting like a dog? He was in an informal situation, enjoying the party and unfortunately, his date (you) nailed him for being social instead of getting up off your butt and moving him out of the way. You knew from previous experience that he is willing to object to being treated that way (and I don't blame him) and yet took him and his collar anyway, I guess with the idea that if he made a wrong move you could nail him with the push button. Not the dog I'd take to a busy and crowded party. If I were a guest at a party and there was a dog in attendance that was wearing an ecollar, my first thought would be that the dog did not belong there and believe me, I would not be sitting on the floor around this dog regardless of the owner's reassurances. The thought that you can take him anywhere because if he doesn't look smart when you speak you'll hit him with stim was certainly a mistake and unfair to the dog. I also don't understand one bit the idea of pushing a dog to the point where the dog objects with aggression, as a training philosophy. A harder dog is going to object and if the warnings go unheeded, up the objection he will have to express it with teeth. Unfair, but more - not smart! Yes, you will find many dogs that have been turned around with this method, but the trainer is not going to be telling you about those dogs and owners that were left worse off, or left the program never to return. Yes, it is entirely possible for a dog to be taught to absorb more and more "discomfort" (don't ya love that word) and work through it so higher and higher levels of pain must be used. After you run out of higher numbers on the remote, where was he going to suggest you go with the punishment?

Is the idea of using the collar constantly that you don't have to exert yourself any more than to use your finger on the button? It is going to take quite a long time to build a proper relationship now and you'd better get started on it soonest. It should be remembered that training is a partnership built on trust and respect. That respect must be mutual.

You might not be sued but the bite will be reported. I am sorry for the dog. Also, keep in mind that a dog acting like a dog is not particularly dominance nor is a lack of authority on the part of the owner/handler to mean the dog is dominant either. Just unmanaged.

So, you've seen where this training has taken you. Like many other "true believers" in a single training method or tool, this so-called instructor is simply going to tell you you weren't using it correctly rather than question that the source of his income might be faulty. Like they say in Search for the Holy Grail, "run away, run away". Get out your collar and leash and start foundation work (yes it is work for both of you and involves learning to understand your dog and rebuilding a relationship).

Good luck and get busy. It will be difficult but certainly can be done. Be reasonable in your expectations and be fair to the dog. Being fair doesn't mean letting the dog run all over you, but understanding the dog as a partner not slave. My experience with the Rottweiler is that they will and do accept earned corrections but that doesn't mean they should accept friviolous over over-done corrections in proportions to the offense. The wonder is that more handlers who employ this philosophy are not bitten. (of course they might be, we just aren't going to see them writing testimonials that are posted on the web site)

[AdonisRotts]

You very lucky that the situation wasn't worse. I live in KY with alot of "hunting" dogs. They frequently use training collars to control their dogs. Just a few weeks ago a patient of ours was outside working in her yard, when a strange dog walked onto her property, and his owners were several hundred yards back. Our patient called the dog to her (it was obvious that the owners were trying to catch her) and was petting on her until they came. When the owner got close enough to give the command come, and the dog did not respond, he shocked her and she immediately bit our patient. It was a horrible ordeal and the bite was very bad. The owners grabbed the dog and ran off, leaving the lady hurt standing in her yard. Well like anyone else she wanted to know if the dog was UTD on its shots, and she sort of recognized one of the hunters. She called them numerous times to ask for vaccination records so the dog could be checked out. When the dog owners would not comply, on our recommendations she contacted the police (rabies can be very bad in KY) on the first visit the owners complained that the dog had ran off again. When the police did a 2nd random visit, they acquired the dog. Because it had been several days and the owners had been non compliant they euthanized the dog (who after the whole mess cleared over, was an AKC/UKC Hunt Champion) and sent his head to a lab. The dog did not have rabies, and our patient feels very guilty that a very nice dog who had a very stupid owner had to be put to sleep.
When the bite victim went to the ER for the wound, they will ask details of the bite incident along with the breed of dog and eventually get reported back to the CDC. Your misfortunate accident has now put another bite accident under the rottweiler breed. You need to take serious action to fix the situation that you were in. I would definitely find a new trainer. He is just covering his own butt. Be very thankful that the situation isn't worse, and hope that the ER did not contact the local authorities (a lot of ER's will, just like they do for Violence, Car Accidents, etc) I know the ER contacted the police in my area, against my asking when I was bitten by my neighbors Golden Retriever. I really hope you can read these posts and deal with your situation in a positive and effective manner.

[Mavides]

I'm sorry you are going through this - it sounds like a very difficult situation and I hope that it really is resolved as far as the other people go - people can get very nasty when dog bites are concerned.

As for the training....sigh....I wish that man would close his doors forever. His techniques are ruining many dogs and also ruining what could be a good training tool, the electronic collar. I have nothing against the collar, and have used it on some of my own dogs as well as client dogs - but it is one tool....not something to be used exclusively on every dog...and certainly not something that you plan on using throughout the dog's entire life (I went to one of his seminars and HIS dog (his pit bull) that was supposed to be the demo dog was STILL on TWO shock collars (one around the neck and one around the stomach!) to show us what she could do...she was at least 5 years old!). I watched him reduce dogs to crying, piddling messes for not wanting to get in the car with him..."work through it, button, button, button!"....aarrgghh!!

As for your case - search for another trainer experienced with Rotties and see if they can help you out. Put the collar away and try some more fair and gentle techniques...give commands the dog knows and then a chance to obey them- if the dog does, make sure he gets a REWARD (petting, treats, play, praise, etc)...then, if he doesn't obey he would get a simple leash correction with a chain training collar or a prong collar - if your boy has done well up to this point, I bet he'll do well with those methods instead.

Best of luck - I hope it all works out well for you!

[Muckdogs]

You see, this is exactly the problem when you (not you personally, but generically) put all the apples in one basket. Soooooooooo many folks think that the ecollar is the be all end all to behavior. As I stated ad nauseum in the thread in training, obvioulsy it is not. That said, it is a great tool that can not only be used to reinforce, but teach as well. Depends how you use it. I personally like the collar, but fully understand its limitations. IMHO, it is totally impossible to make any type of judgment about your dogs dominance or reactions without seeing it. To do so would be a disservice to the dog. I will make a few general statements about how I see use of a collar. First, my dogs wear a collar every single second they are out of their crates. this is my preference for a number of reasons. The important thing is that I don't think it is a bad thing. Second, the level of stimulation necessary for a dog varies. If your dog requires a 5, it requires a 5, end of story. Every dog has its own thresholds. That is why we take a lot of time to establish working levels when first employing the collar. Example -> my male Rott is a ecollar wuss. In fact, I use a dogtra 1200ncp, and mainly use the vibration pager instead of any type of stim. I get eh desired results from that. Contrast, my Malx bitch is tough and has an extremely high threshold. I tried a dogtra 202ncp gold because she is a smaller dog and I didn't want the huge 1200 collar box. Waste of money. Max stim (level 60) didn't even make her ears flick when in drive. Now, she wears a 1200 box and her working level is just about medium-high (probably a level 40 on the rheostat). I seriously doubt that a level 60 would really do much to her. But, she is kind of freaky that way. Third, your trainer is correct in that stimulating a high drive dog could make the dog lash out, or worsen the behavior. I have personally seen this with a couple of dogs that I can think of that got exponentially stronger the more stim applied. In fact, I have seen this type of thing where the dog had a dogtra 2000 and an old Trasher on at the same time. Nada. Only got stronger. That is why someone needs to independantly evaluate your dog in person. Words just don't do it.


Maybe it's just as simple as the dog got caught by surprise, not expecting a stim at a social gathering and thought that the guy he bit somehow was responsible for his pain. In fact, that seems to make sense to me if your dog was properly introduced to the collar (meaning not collar wise). He could have very easily thought the guy did something to him and nailed him. Either way, I have a hard time placing fault on the dog given this set of facts.

[Muckdogs]

Originally Posted by Mavides

but it is one tool....not something to be used exclusively on every dog...and certainly not something that you plan on using throughout the dog's entire life (I went to one of his seminars and HIS dog (his pit bull) that was supposed to be the demo dog was STILL on TWO shock collars (one around the neck and one around the stomach!) to show us what she could do...she was at least 5 years old!).

I am very curious to know why you think that the collar should not be used for life. Why not? Is it not the same as a 1/4 or 1/2 mile leash? What good is it if it is not on to be used? Now, I will agree that if you are using it in a specialized manner, for instance speeding up a recall, the useful life would be pretty short. But, if it is integrated into general obedience, why not. In my eyes, the ecollar is no different from a leash. In fact, it is every bit as good, and better because it is more versitile. I would venture to say that no member of this board would ever promote not using a leash when the dog reached a certain age or competency. Why is the collar different. Just curious.

[Judi W]

Humm, if the training "took" then one should not be needing to be in a position of giving corrections all the time. The whole purpose of training is to have the dog respond to commands and/or instructions because it has learned to do so without being dependent on corrections.

[Muckdogs]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Humm, if the training "took" then one should not be needing to be in a position of giving corrections all the time. The whole purpose of training is to have the dog respond to commands and/or instructions because it has learned to do so without being dependent on corrections.

Then why have leashes and collars? Isn't the purpose of them "just in case". If the training "tooK", then the dog should never chase a person, chase a car, chase an animal, chase a bicycle, should never engage anyone who ever came up to it, etc.... and would have a perfect recall 100% of the time, but of course, you would never have to use a recall, becasue the dog would never break in the first place. We are just as dependant on leashes and collars. Same thing with an ecollar. The real problem is that you can never, ever, proof for every situation that you and the dog will encounter. You may have proofed with small children running around, but did you proof with a small child riding a big wheel backwards while singing "You lost that loving feeling" in Chinese through a megaphone? Probably not. So, it is safe to say that the dog may freak out a little and require a correction. I don't know about you, but I cannot recall ever, a single time, walking my dog without giving him a single leash correction.

[Judi W]

Every second they are out of their crates?!!!! That is what I was commenting on. I don't have rabbits running through my home or yard or a small child riding a big wheel backwards while singing "You lost that loving feeling" in Chinese through a megaphone? and you bet, the leash can and does certainly come off when doing formal work. In fact during formal work it is off more than it is on at the advanced training level and with my mature dogs. And by the way, while we are in the park training we have encountered small children riding a big wheel (forwards not backwards) and singing whilst dragging a puppy alongside them, going straight towards the dogs although the singing is in Spanish, not Chinese. I expect and my dog does continue with its work, or hold its position while I reset jumps or put out articles or gloves or.........

[Muckdogs]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Every second they are out of their crates?!!!! That is what I was commenting on. I don't have rabbits running through my home or yard or a small child riding a big wheel backwards while singing "You lost that loving feeling" in Chinese through a megaphone? and you bet, the leash can and does certainly come off when doing formal work. In fact during formal work it is off more than it is one at the advanced training level.

Every single second. The collar chargers reside on top of the crates and they are put on as soon as the door opens and taken off right before it closes. I trust my dogs and I trust my training. What I don't trust is my 8 month old, the cats, the teenager next door that taunts them, and in the case of my bitch, any dog of any sex of any persuasion that so much as looks her way. I just like to have back-up, as only one perfect Person ever walked the earth and the stakes are waaaaay to high with the type of dogs I own to risk imperfection.