Remote collar provoked a bite, trainer disagrees. What now? (very long, sorry)...

[Muckdogs]

Originally Posted by Mavides

For example - at AKC trials, prong collars and electronic collars are not allowed - both are excellent training tools, but their reasoning is by the time a dog is ready to compete, they should be able to perform out there without needing those types of corrections.

Hmmmmm ... I thought the reason that they weren't allowed at AKC events was because the powers that be thought they were cruel torture devices.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that an ecollar (properly used) is a harder correction than a prong or choke?

[Judi W]

No, in fact their policy statement says that although they are and can be excellent training devices, it is expected that a dog should be sufficiently trained to function without them before being involved in any AKC event or show. They include head halters in this as well.

[Muckdogs]

Originally Posted by Judi W

No, in fact their policy statement says that although they are and can be excellent training devices, it is expected that a dog should be sufficiently trained to function without them before being involved in any AKC event or show. They include head halters in this as well.

That pretty much goes for any trial in any sport. I know in SchH and ASR, I have only used fur-savers. Of course no one would go on the field with an ecollar or prong. You are not supposed to use any type of physical correction in trial - loose leash or off lead at all times. Myself, I would prefer a flat collar anyway. But, I am trying to see the connection between this and normal everyday activity regarding having an ecollar on. Just my .02, but an ecollar is a far less harsh correction than when using a prong or choke. I will bet my last dollar that I can way more physical damage with a hard leash correction than with a 1/10th of a second nick even on the highest level of stim. Plus, you always have the leash on, vis-a-vis the remote, to give a correction when needed. I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to wean a dog off a remote.

[alexav]

A wise dog trainer once said... "No amount of equipment can make up for a good, mutually respectful relationship with your dog."

A wise mechanic once said "It is the user of the tool that either gets the job done, or screws it up so completely they have to call a professional!"

[Judi W]

Heavy handed and physical corrections whether by collar and lead or ecollar are not the only choice in living with a dog of correct character, proper training and senseible household members.

[Muckdogs]

Of course not. In a perfect world with a perfect dog, we wouldn't have to give corrections. I don't know about you, but I have yet to find that world. My point is simply that there is zero difference between a properly used ecollar (obviously not as the OP was taught) and any type of other collar be it flat, choke (which I detest) or prong. I jsut feel taht the ecollar is less harsh, better for the overall relationship between dog and handler, and always ready when needed.

[SonnyRott]

I am trying to understand.....

It was noted (muckdogs) that the second your dog is out of the crate the ecollar is put on. Why?

As an example, my dog does not wear any type of collar indoors. Only when we go outside do I put a collar on the dog.

When indoors, and if my dog needed a correction as in a "ahh ahh" for nosing towards the trash for example, he understands this to mean he better back away from the garbage. If he hesitates, just my walking in his direction is enough for him to get away from the trash as he knows his nose ( ) does not belong there.

In your household, would you stim the dog after first saying "ahh ahh"? Or would you be using it as the dog approached the garbage?

I am not saying this includes (you muckdogs) but a general statement on the use of ecollars.....

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to stim a dog in teaching or proofing basic household manners and I am not seeing how this could benefit the dog's learning capabilities but rather, I can quickly see how this could diminish the dog's learning capabilities. I can also see how he may not want to obey, out of understanding and respect, but rather out of pain...which in his mind may or may not be coming from you (until he figures it out).

I am not sure if the dog understands whether the stim is coming from the garbage or does he eventually realize you are the one stimming him based on the fact that you are always present when it happens and your voice/body language is a clear sign that you are in fact doling out this correction.

At this point (unless used for sporting purposes or for a dog running off and putting himself or others at risk), I don't see the value of ecollar for everyday training when the everyday job of dog ownership is very hands on and time consuming and the teaching/learning/bonding process is what makes the relationship between a smart dog like the Rottweiler so great and very deep.

Please...no offense to anyone.

[Judi W]

My dogs don't use collars at home either. With my pups, we're busy learning all kinds of neat things, and my aults are not doing the kind of infraction that would require more than a verbal reminder. Household things involve no using my house as a toilet, no furniture chewing or lounging on the couch, no charging the door when a household member is opening it, things of that nature and how to lie down quietly when requested. When I had pups and children at the same time, the additional rules were no chewing on the children, and for the children, no racing or yelling when pup was out. The not poking at dogs was a given and never occured to the boys.

When it is time to do a bit of training indoors or on the property, collar and leash were brought out and concentrated time devoted to learning something new or extending the training. Although corrections are a small piece of my training, I don't need them to be flying through the air during just plain being out and together time.

This is just a basic philosophy difference and neither right or wrong I guess. For myself, I have not found it necessary to be so corrective in order to have congenial household relationships and manners. It comes over time.

First time for these words from me but "we'll just have to agree to disagree on this".

[SamL]

Folks, thank for all the commentary and insight so far. One question, however, remains unanswered and I'm really looking for an opinion on this:

The trainer and I are in a serious debate about whether or not it was the collar itself that pushed the dog to bite. The dog has displayed signs of disdain towards correction in the past (he's grumbled and snarled when 'popped' hard with a prong collar, too) but NEVER to the point where he's caused serious physical damage to a human being. This, to me, is the differentiating factor between the e-collar and other methods such as verbal or prong correction. The dog did not bite with a prong collar. The dog DID bite with the e-collar, plain and simple.

The trainer indicates that, based on their observations regarding the character of the dog, that he is and will always be a 'managed case' and would have bitten someone anyway regardless of the method of correction, that it was just a matter of time. Furthermore, it is the trainers opinion that the dog's display of aggression towards me when being pushed hard with the collar and the need to use it during EVERY command are totally necessary in the case of this particular animal. We have gone around and around on the issue and for the time being the collar is going back to the trainer, the dog is being muzzled in public, and I am not putting him in any more social situations until other professionals have had a chance to evaluate the dog.

I am not out to smear the remote collar method. As I indicated in my original and subsequent posts, I believe the method has merit and it has without a doubt helped this dog -- he in many ways is better off with the collar than he was without it (i.e. I have succesfully kept him from lunging at other dogs by holding his attention with the collar - something the trainer was quick to point out was previously impossible) -- but when an incident like this happens and I see with my own eyes that the dog bit someone the second I pushed that button... well, you can obviously understand why I'd question the collar. What's even more unfortunate is that, without the collar, the dog is essentially as defiant and difficult as he was the day the collar was introduced. Now that I have made the choice to discontinue its use, I'm back to square one.

I've had a lot of time to think about what happened and based on what I've read in this thread and heard from others, am really beginning to harbor ill feelings towards the remote collar method in general... yes, it works (or worked, in this case), but I am having reservations about the realization that with the remote collar method this dog will need to be "plugged in" for the rest of his life... surely there's a better way?!

I'm seeking strong opinions from both sides to assist me in formulating my next course of action... so please, no holds barred -- what do you really think? Please keep in mind that this is a VERY driven animal who comes from strong working lines... extremely intelligent but also capable of being extremely defiant.

[spidey]

It's very hard for anyone to say without having been there and seen the incident. I have seen dogs do this sort of thing when given a painful or surprising correction when they did not expect it (including on a prong collar) - a wide combination of things might be the reason that your dog's bite threshold was crossed. One of the best theories for bite threshold I've ever come across basically states that all dogs have stressors and all dogs have a bite threshold - if you combine enough stressors to cross the bite threshold the dog will bite. This is why you often hear of dogs biting people when the dog has never shown any sign of doing so in the past. An example could be a dog whose stressors include loud children, action around the food bowl at mealtimes, and other dogs. Any one or even two of these stressors would not provoke a bite, and indeed the owners may never have even noticed the dog displaying stress around them, but combine all three at the same time, and the dog will bite. In your dog's case, it could be being in a new place, with people milling around, and then getting zapped out of nowhere.

There is no way to definitively say what caused the bite, but I will say that the practice of correcting the dog every time you issue a command is certainly a good way to have a dog with constantly frayed nerves, and in my estimation this can make a dog much more likely to bite than it would be otherwise (basically a lesson in "how to ruin a dog's character"). In my opinion, it says a lot about your dog's character that he hasn't seriously bitten someone before now when he's been getting hurt by the collar every time he interacts with people. It sounds to me like your "trainer" is trying to blame your dog for something which is more likely to be fundamentally related to the deeply flawed "training" method this dog has endured, and thereby avoid even considering that the training is at least part of the problem. This training does not follow any accepted animal behavioural modification protocols.

The problem isn't the collar, the problem is the way the collar is being used. You can abuse any training device, even a flat collar, this does not say anything about the device itself, but rather about the trainer using it.

But I would certainly do what others have suggested and put the collar away at least for now and get into some motivational, relationship-building, FUN training classes. Start trying to get your dog to enjoy working WITH you, and start respecting him the way he deserves to be respected. This training has set up an adversarial relationship from the get go, I think you need to start trying to change it into a cooperative one. Referring to your dog as "defiant and difficult" is symptomatic of the relationship you now have with him, perhaps you could try and look at this differently, he's not being "defiant and difficult", he is uneducated and unsure of his place in the world. The fact that your dog has reverted to the way he was before this "training" is all the proof you need that you didn't actually train him at all. Dogs need to learn how to live well with people, he has not learned this because you have not taught him. Remember that you have also been affected by this training fiasco, many of your attitudes toward your dog and dog training will have been tainted by it, just as your dog and your relationship with him have been.

[Judi W]

Well, I think you need to back up further than just to what kind of collar. The presupposition that training and teaching and leadership need to be established with physical punishment as the primary is where you'd better start questioning. I have trained multiple Rottweilers to advanced titles and worked with many a rescue (saved quite a few lives BTW) but the teaching and leadership was never established based on physical corretions. Yes, corrections are used when necessary after the teaching and during proofing but even then are minimal. And BTW, I don't care whether the physical corrections are administered through a training collar, an e collar or a wrestling match.

If the only tool a trainer has is physical, s/he is a very limited trainer indeed. Opposable thumbs should accompany a clever brain. Sadly, this is not always the case.

Debbie can attest to how far and how decently a dog can come with thoughtful work. She acquired an adult, fairly strong dog with a 'tude and although this boy is still a work in progress, he is a great dog that is going to be a terrific dog.

[frontierrots]

My worst bite ever was from a GSD X Rott mix that I gave a prong (his owner's choice of collar) correction to when he was in drive. Dog swung around and bit me in the thigh. Well correction, he had my entire thigh in his mouth AND bit.

YES prongs and E collars can indeed cause a bite in SOME dogs, especially dogs in drive or dogs that feel correction was unfair. NOT all dogs but some dogs

Personally I'd find a different trainer and use something other than a prong or an e collar and start ALL OVER with TOTALLY new command words

[SonnyRott]

Originally Posted by SamL

I have a 5 yr. old neutered male.....

The dog was socializing well, lots of licks and butt-wags and eventually settled into the lap of one of the female guests......

The owner of the house walked into the room carrying something heavy and the dog went to investigate.......

She classified him as "sweet and loving" but "protective and driven" which was proven during the first few months of ownership....

The dog is a butt-wagging wuss but has a high prey drive, loves to chase, is a "wandering sniffer" and persistent leash-tugger on walks.....

I went back are reread your post and pulled out the positive things you said about your dog. The dominance issues you described in the rest of your post seemed to be displayed towards dogs only.

It sounds like you took ownership of an 18 month old who in all probability had not been socialized around other dogs thus his dislike for them. All the rest of his behaviors (before introducing the ecollar) sound perfectly normal (and workable) for a dog you just acquired.

I cannot imagine a butt wagging wuss, coming into a new home and feeling good about this method of training. It sounds like some good old fashioned bonding through play, exercise, obedience training would have been enough to make this boy a very happy camper. I feel sad for this dog but think he now may need alot of work to learn to trust you again. How did you get him home after the bite? Was it with a leash and collar? My point is....a leash and collar may have been the only thing this dog ever needed.

I also do not find it admirable that your trainer is putting all the onus on the dog. I am not sure that a butt wagging wuss is a good candidate for an ecollar. With his high drive, find something fun that you both enjoy doing together.

[Muckdogs]

Originally Posted by SonnyRott

I am trying to understand.....

It was noted (muckdogs) that the second your dog is out of the crate the ecollar is put on. Why?

As an example, my dog does not wear any type of collar indoors. Only when we go outside do I put a collar on the dog.

When indoors, and if my dog needed a correction as in a "ahh ahh" for nosing towards the trash for example, he understands this to mean he better back away from the garbage. If he hesitates, just my walking in his direction is enough for him to get away from the trash as he knows his nose ( ) does not belong there.

In your household, would you stim the dog after first saying "ahh ahh"? Or would you be using it as the dog approached the garbage?

I am not saying this includes (you muckdogs) but a general statement on the use of ecollars.....

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want to stim a dog in teaching or proofing basic household manners and I am not seeing how this could benefit the dog's learning capabilities but rather, I can quickly see how this could diminish the dog's learning capabilities. I can also see how he may not want to obey, out of understanding and respect, but rather out of pain...which in his mind may or may not be coming from you (until he figures it out).

I am not sure if the dog understands whether the stim is coming from the garbage or does he eventually realize you are the one stimming him based on the fact that you are always present when it happens and your voice/body language is a clear sign that you are in fact doling out this correction.

At this point (unless used for sporting purposes or for a dog running off and putting himself or others at risk), I don't see the value of ecollar for everyday training when the everyday job of dog ownership is very hands on and time consuming and the teaching/learning/bonding process is what makes the relationship between a smart dog like the Rottweiler so great and very deep.

Please...no offense to anyone.

The reason my dogs always wear their ecollars makes perfect sense to me. My dogs were trained with the collar, are used to the collar and how they were trained, and most importantly, operate with the light switch always in the "on" position. They are never off. I expect obedience 100% of the time, as if we were on the field. I always want to be prepared to mark a bad behavior and train around it and have done so many times. The majority of the time my dogs are inside, the collars never get used. But, sometimes they do. I simply don't believe in tchanging training methods in mid stream. If I mark, correct and then reward with a collar on the field, why would I ever think of doing it differently at home. I believe, and maybe wrongly, that inconsistency in training leads to failure on the field and time wasted trying to retrain something you let slip. Here is an example that will maybe put it into perspective:

When we walk the dogs, they are on flexi leads attached to the ecollar. we begin walking and when we get out of the driveway, I give them the "free" command. They know that that means that they can take as much lead as they want, sniff things, romp around, get tangled, whatever. But, I absolutely won't tolerate pulling, lunging at people or dogs, or breaking on other peoples lawns. When any of those occur, they get an immediate heel command, and if they come, great -> few steps a couple of chest pats and then free again. If they don't respond within a couple of seconds, nick, nick, nick, to the heel, heel a little while and then free them. Someone please point out a difference between this and maybe a pop with a prong collar. If there is, I can't see it.

The way my dogs act around the house is no differently than I want at work. I don't have a suitcase full of commands for "house" behavior. I have "here" "off" "out" "down" "crate" and "free". That's what we use in work, that's what I use in the house. It keeps things simple for them and for me. And yes, my dogs get corrected in the house. They are never, ever out of my sight or my control, ever. Dogs are dogs and they do crazy things, regardless of level of training and obedience. They are not perfect robots and they are not mind readers. Dogs gravitate towards food on the counter, trash, cat food, items that don't belong to them, cats, etcc... All things deserving of a correction. Of course they get an "off" first, but if they feel like ignoring it, then what. You have just given a senseless and unreinforced command. I have been told by many a sage trainer that a command should never been given that can't be immediately reinforced if ignored because while it may seem like an inconsequential or trivial thing, disobedience is cumulative. Everyone here that trains knows that you have a window of opportinity to correct, before it becomes meaningless. Flinks says it is about 1.7 seconds at the max. Anything beyond that is meaningless. I personally think it a tad longer, but then again, who am I. Plus, people talk about bond degradation. Without a collar on, what are you going to do? I'll tell you -> ready -> dog in trash, command "off", ignores you, recommand "off", looks your way, but still eating the dinner scraps that itcouldn't resist, You head their way at a rapid pace of course recommanding "Off", now that's three commands that you have given (that's a disqualification in Schutzhund), either grab the collar or fumble around for a leash to hook up, dog knows it is in deep crap by now and ears go back, nub down and slinks because it knows it is serious crap, grab the dog by the collar and maybe yoke it a few times, "I told you off", yoke, yoke, yoke, dog slinks off and lies down total time, about 30 or more seconds. That's reaaaal good for relationship bonding, meaningless corrections, and owner overt hostility to the dog. Contrast, dog in garbage seen from across house, command "here or off", one-thousand one, one-thousand -two, nick, nick, nick, dog comes running with a nice, snappy front finish, garbage already forgotten, now looking for reward for a great "here" and an even better front finish. Reward for obedience. Same thing accomplished, two completely separate pictures of the dogs and I didn't have to get all lathered up, or worse, go to the dog with the dog knowing it was in trouble and running or slinking away. That's not how I would do it on the field, so that's not how I would do it at home. Now I know he has a trash problem (or cat food, or whatever). Now we begin to train around the problem until interest in the object wanes and no one is worse for the wear.

Like I've said before, having an ecollar on is no different that having any other type of collar on, excpet that it gives you an immediate opportunity to train. I don't tolerate my dogs blowing me off at any time whatsoever. When I say "here", it means here right now, at a rapid pace -> not when you are finished eating the rest of the cat food. If they don't come, training exercise. Personally, I don't care if my dogs are always "on". Too bad. They get to have plenty of fun, relax and spend time with the family. But, they also know that if they screw around, they will get corrected without hesitation, period. Our bonds and relationships are just as solid as anyone else's. The ecollar has zero to do with that.

This thread goes to show how an improperly used ecollar can screw up a dog. The sad part is that the OP did seek a "professinoal" trainer, who proceeded to screw things up. I have so much wrong with what the trainer recently told you that I can't even begin to discuss it, other than to say, ditch that A-hole and go to someone else to try and unscrew your dog. I guess one solid to take away form this is that you, as an owner, have a responsibility to do some background on stuff like this so in the future you won't get bamboozled by some smooth talking jerk off. The internet has a ton of good info, and a ton of bad info. But, it is info and gives you a base of knowledge. I don't know enough about your dog and you to say whether or not you should put the collar up for good. That's a hands on call. Maybe, maybe not. But, I would heed the advice that others have said in the interim and intorduce some positive reinforcement into your training and make him understand that listening is a good thing. You'v egot many backwards steps to take, but you will eventually begin to move forward again.

[Judi W]

This is not a cirticism as I understand your logic in the consistency and am glad you are not a tyrant about using the collar which is what the NL training is about. Do you trial these dogs?