Remote collar provoked a bite, trainer disagrees. What now? (very long, sorry)...

[SonnyRott]

Originally Posted by Muckdogs

Every single second. The collar chargers reside on top of the crates and they are put on as soon as the door opens and taken off right before it closes. I trust my dogs and I trust my training. What I don't trust is my 8 month old, the cats, the teenager next door that taunts them, and in the case of my bitch, any dog of any sex of any persuasion that so much as looks her way. I just like to have back-up, as only one perfect Person ever walked the earth and the stakes are waaaaay to high with the type of dogs I own to risk imperfection.

I am following this thread with interest.

Just curious....in determining the stim level, has any of your dogs ever expressed dislike for the e-collar such as the OP is experiencing now? And if so, what were the circumstances?

Thanks.

[Muckdogs]

Originally Posted by SonnyRott

I am following this thread with interest.

Just curious....in determining the stim level, has any of your dogs ever expressed dislike for the e-collar such as the OP is experiencing now? And if so, what were the circumstances?

Thanks.

No, not the two that I now have. I have not had them lash out in any fashion from a stimulation. I have worked a dog very recently that only grows stronger through stimulation and bites harder and harder. This dog had a problem with the "out" command. Without going into a bunch of philosphical stuff, suffice it to say that the catalyst for the problem was not a tradiitional "out" problem. In any event, when on the sleeve or suit and stimulated, this dog redirects his discomfort to the helper/decoy. But, my two personal dogs, no. They are not the types of dogs that would lash out at me. Plus, that is not really the way I employ the collar to begin with. I prefer to use the collar as a type of marker for bad/improper behavior and not as a "punishment" per se (for example, if the dog were to break the long down and you just out and out fried it to punish it). Kind of like a clicker with a tiny bit of zing to make sure they don't miss it. Instead, I like to use lower levels and mark the behavior that needs to be corrected and then reward as soon as it is fixed. Some folks use it to teach a "safe-zone" type of thing, but I have some problems with that model, so I don't use it.

[Muckdogs]

I will also say that I have in the past used the ecollar for aversion training when nothing else was practical or had worked. The situations that come to mind were breaking my bitch from chasing the cats and breaking my male from crapping on our back deck (as in right after I had jsut given him a crap break) every morning. BUT, when I did these things, I made a special ecollar so the risk for them getting collar wise and being afraid of an ecollar were minimized. I won't go into every detail of the training, but suffice it to say that it got pretty hot for a little while. To date, problems solved - him for three years, her for at least 18 months. As I said, though, this is not my preferred way to use an ecollar. And, the ONLY reason I employed the collar in this fashion was that I absolutely knew that the dogs knew better. In fact, believe it or not, my male would actually stop crapping as soon as he saw me looking. Like I wouldn't see the half-pile that he had already dumped.

[alexav]

You ask what your next step should be...

Start being FAIR to your dog. I am very familiar with the "No Limitations", teaching through pain, "method" and I think it's obvious that a dog with any more than 2 active brain cells would end up very frustrated for hardly ever being "right enough" to avoid "stim". (love that term ) That frustration is going to come out somewhere and now you know where...

If I have my dog on a leash, is it fair at all to jerk at the same time I give a command? NO! Only if I give my dog time to obey the command, and he doesn't should any correction be given.
Do you need a slap accross the face to get your attention, or should someone ask you a question first?

Sure, an e-collar can be a fabulous tool, but in the wrong hands, with the wrong, completely unfair method such as this, it is not only abusive, but dangerous.

BTW, your "trainer" was outscored by a 10 year old girl at a recent PSA trial. His dog simply could not function without the e-collar and constant "stim" reminders even though it was his home field. The team could not pass the obedience routine and were excused from further participation.

[hmeadq]

First, let me say that we use an e-collar occassionally. We started with a barking we could not quiet. But very quickly he put two and two together. So then we quit trying to keep it secret from him and would just put the collar on when he started barking and would not "quiet." Now 95% of the time we just have to say the work "Collar" and he will hush... He was also a total whimp (not that I wouldn't be) but we leave it set at 1 now and he will occassioanally yelp at that seeting (and I have tested it on me to make sure it is not broken.)

But why would you correct a dog before giving it a chance to obey? And my dog is not on a leash all the time, inside, with manners he doesn't need to be. Why do you need to correct in the house?

I read the No Limitations site. It seems a lot of the focus was on quick results but there were very few true explinations of what the training method really entailed. Anyone who promises quick results in weight loss or training is probably not being truthful or is promoting an unhealthy system. Can someone please give me a better idea of exactly what this training method entails?

[SamL]

Originally Posted by alexav

You ask what your next step should be...

BTW, your "trainer" was outscored by a 10 year old girl at a recent PSA trial. His dog simply could not function without the e-collar and constant "stim" reminders even though it was his home field. The team could not pass the obedience routine and were excused from further participation.

My trainer is probably not the one mentioned here, but I do see your point and would like to make some other observations regarding my experience with the collar.

You are absolutely correct in the assertion that the e-collar is now a HINDRANCE when it is not fitted. I now have a dog who is completely 'useless' without it, and will not reliably respond to ANY command without a stim. I do not feel this is productive or humane at this point, and will likely be ditching the collar completely.

The problem now is that my dog is no better off than he was before the collar traning -- I have spent a good deal of time and money on this approach. It is becoming very clear to me why all of the No Limitations trainers offer free followup training for the life of the dog -- you really have no other choice!

Now, some comments regarding the training methodology:

Some have asked why the dog was stimmed during the issuance of a simple command -- this was at the direction of the trainer. I was told that EVERY "sit", EVERY "stay", and EVERY "come", "heel" or what have you should be given with a stim and that the collar should be fitted whenever the dog is outside of my home. The trainers equate the stim to a "tap on the shoulder" desinged to get the dog's attention. Again, I am not the dog expert here but I am starting to question this methodology.

I will not name names, but during a recent event the "father" of the No Limitations method himself witnessed the nipping behavior from the dog during the collar training and insisted that I stay on the dog. I even pointed out "Look, the dog is p'd off and is biting me", and the response was "keep on it, he won't hurt you". Ok fine, he might not hurt me (at least he's never broken skin) but it's clear that he has no qualms about hurting someone else when the stim proves to be overwhelming or undesired.

In a more extreme situation (say the dog bit someone in the face and I ended up in court), would the trainers assume any liability for the dog's behavior based on their supposed "experience" and insistence that I drive my dog to the point of aggression?

Thanks for all of your support and advice thus far. I am still really confused.

[Judi W]

Sam,
You are getting the point. Good. Easy for him to say keep it up, he was not the one that was going to be bitten! Also with that philosophy, it is easy to see why it is considered that the dogs wear the collars at all times. They are trained to the collar and not to behavior. As above, instead of teaching the dog what quiet means, the dog was taught what collar means. Quiet means stop barking. Collar means "you're probably gonna get hurt"

Like I said, it is going to take a long time, but you can change things. It will take longer than it would have because now you have to erase all over a year's worth of conditioning and replace it. It certainly can be done so don't hang up on training. Yep, I agree, fast weight or fast training are greatly over-promoted.

[hmeadq]

Originally Posted by SamL

Some have asked why the dog was stimmed during the issuance of a simple command -- this was at the direction of the trainer. I was told that EVERY "sit", EVERY "stay", and EVERY "come", "heel" or what have you should be given with a stim and that the collar should be fitted whenever the dog is outside of my home. The trainers equate the stim to a "tap on the shoulder" desinged to get the dog's attention. Again, I am not the dog expert here but I am starting to question this methodology.

Couldn't your dog's name be that "tap on the sholder?" It works for you and me, and it works for my puppy. He has a very reliable recall on "here," how? Butt scratches EVERY time, even a rabbit is not as good as a butt scratch! His come is very good to but not quite at the same level yet...

Maybe a visit to a less fringe trainer would be worth while, and yes, it does sound like you need to start over, at least to me...

[spidey]

I'm glad you're looking elsewhere for information. In my opinion, regardless of the credentials of the trainer, if their methods do not sit right with you and their explanation does not make sense, you have an obligation to stop what is going on until you either have an explanation which makes sense to you, or you leave and find another trainer. Your dog is your responsibility, you are the only thing between him and other people, and the trainers in all likelihood would not assume any liability (I am not a lawyer), you are the one who chose their training, and you are the one who continued with it. Sorry, I think you've been misled by this "trainer", and you have some serious work ahead of you I suspect.

And what Heather said - my dog's name is all the tap on the shoulder he needs.

[RottiMomCT]

I don't think anyone would correct their dog at the same time as issuing a command. You give the command, and if your dog is paying attention, he obeys. If he is not paying attention, or has decided to blow you off, then you correct the dog.

I always tell my beginner student - you MUST have the dogs attention before you can do ANYTHING else with the dog.

Give the dog a chance to screw up before correcting him!! In the learning phase of training, it is OK TO BE WRONG, how else do they learn?! Once you've proofed & perfected, then you can demand instant compliance - until then, allow the dog to be wrong and HELP HIM BE RIGHT...

[frontierrots]

Sadlyyou are going to have to go back to the beginning and start ALL over like you have a new puppy

Muckdogs ecollar method is different than what you've described and while I have waaay on the opposite spectrum in training methodology, any method that is fair and with proper timeing and enough time spend on the foundations will work in the long run with many dogs. The method you've been trained in does not. It is NOT fair at all and as you've seen, can bring out a porr response if the dog also views it as unfair

[Diva'sOwner]

Yes, please throw away that expensive collar and start over, teaching your dog what come means by using a long leash. I was horrified to read that EVERY command EVERY time gets a jolt. Ohmigosh. If if were the dog, that would make me fearful and/or pissed of each time I heard a command. To me, shocking him as you say the command is the same as telling him to come and then slapping him when he does. He associates the command with pain and he now refuses all of it. Please, please find a trainer that doesn't use collars and go back to the basics. Maybe you can turn this situation around, or maybe you aren't the one who deserves this dog's company anymore.

[Diva'sOwner]

Just reading this again boils my blood and I'm ready to bite the nearest person to me.

Some have asked why the dog was stimmed during the issuance of a simple command -- this was at the direction of the trainer. I was told that EVERY "sit", EVERY "stay", and EVERY "come", "heel" or what have you should be given with a stim and that the collar should be fitted whenever the dog is outside of my home. The trainers equate the stim to a "tap on the shoulder" desinged to get the dog's attention. Again, I am not the dog expert here but I am starting to question this methodology.

People who are successful with the collar do not zap with the command. It's the refusal to follow the command (after being given a chance to do it) that is corrected. At least that's what I've seen.

[alexav]

If this were my dog, I would start over completely with a good motivational training method. I would go so far as to teach him in another language. It will take a while to convince him that he will no longer experience pain unfairly. Imagine the happy surprise on his face when you give a command and he gets food or a toy for his effort!

What most of these instant gratification e-collar for dollars people just don't understand is that a dog will work 10 times harder to get something he wants than he will to avoid something he doesn't want. ie pain.

The TD of our club worked some police K9s that have been through this type of "program" and now don't have an "out", are handler aggressive and basically just working through the pain to get what they want. The handlers were amazed how fast a dog will "out" the decoy, if he is taught the game is not over, but begins anew! After that demonstration, they changed their training methods drastically.

SEARCH your area for a GOOD trainer. Someone that understands DRIVE SHAPING and motivation.
Go to as many trainers as you can travel to. Most will let you sit in on a class for free. Listen and learn. Leave your dog at home and stop trying to find someone to "fix" him. In 99.9% of the cases, it is the OWNER that needs the training.

There is much to be learned about dogs and the way dogs think and learn. Start with some good books like "Culture Clash", just to get you started thinking outside the box you've been put in...

I wish you well in your journey to learn about these amazing creatures we share our lives with.
Respectfully,

Alexa

ps....It was "the father himself" I was referring to.

[Mavides]

Originally Posted by Muckdogs

I am very curious to know why you think that the collar should not be used for life. Why not? Is it not the same as a 1/4 or 1/2 mile leash? What good is it if it is not on to be used?

I would hope that over time, a dog would need less and less corrections - if you are consistent with your training, eventually the dog should not be making as many mistakes and therefore not need as many corrections. For example - at AKC trials, prong collars and electronic collars are not allowed - both are excellent training tools, but their reasoning is by the time a dog is ready to compete, they should be able to perform out there without needing those types of corrections.

That said, there are some dogs that do need to be on electronic for life, but I usually try to wean most back to a prong or a choke for long term. I believe that it's best to use as little correction as is necessary to get the point across.