controlled down

[Francisca Lopez]

I was just wondering on others ideas of the idea of a controlled down method to be done daily as part of our training....we have begun our first obedience classes and this is a method the trainer has us doing for two 15 minute sessions a day, our girl has never really ever shown that kind of testing behavior to have to pin her to the floor pinching her neck, but we are doing this upon the trainers request and she has done fine with my husband doing this to her without a fight she will just lay there right away, so the trainer had put on our homework if the dog is falling asleep to do it every other day which we will do but I was just curious to see how many of you have followed this or incorporated this into a daily training session with your dogs.

[sophie's-mom]

How old is your dog and what is the purpose of the training?

Judi W suggests the long down when there are problems, I'm not sure if she incorporates it in general training.

[Muckdogs]

I can't follow what you are describing. What position is the dog and the people in when the dog is down?

[Francisca Lopez]

She is just under 6 months old, the purpose is to show who has the control and in charge, and I believe after this initial training of it we are to incorporate it when she is being unruly if you will

The position of the people is sitting on the floor with either left or right leg out and the other leg in (sort of a figure four) the dog is laying down with their back to you and either left or right hand on thier neck with thumb on some nerve behind her jaw when fighting and we are to verbally tell them NO!! when they attempt to move or fight it otherwise hand is on the scruff of the neck with other hand petting her while she remains still

Hope that makes sense thats the best way to describe it in words

[Judi W]

I believe there is a big difference between using the "place" down and between a dominance roll over, (pinch the neck???) down. I do not approve of or ever recommend the dominance/roll over down. I think it is stupid and not productive. A good and compliant dog certainly does not need it and if anything it will bully the poor pup into losing confidence. The strong contentious dog will be taught that leadership seems to be established by whoever wins the fight. Not an idea I would want to encourage.

Brains and leadership should accompany opposable thumbs, but unfortunately they does not always do so. It has not been my observation that getting down on the floor and fighting with a pup is productive in any way. I don't like it.

The 30 minute down I sometimes recommend has nothing to do with rolling over or bullying or fighting or especially getting on the floor with the dog. It is used to teach the dog to relax and accept remaining in a place and normally recommended where the dog has been establishing the household rules over weak leadership.

[Judi W]

PS, you can smile and nod, and then chose not to do this.

[hmeadq]

We did a similar exercise with Doc when we first got him. We would kind of push him over (slowly) and when he was laying on his side, keep a light pressure on his shoulder. He could get up a minute or so after he licked our hand or yawned, the idea being that both of those showed he had submitted...

He quickly learned to lick our hand the second we did it. I don't think it did any good...

[SonnyRott]

Now I have learned alot since coming here but I must admit.....

I have held my dog down as a pup by the scruff when he was out of control (but feeling in control), until he understood that I was in control. Those occassions were rare and I did not apologize or coddle the pup afterwards. I am all for redirection, praise, teaching and working to help the dog understand etc., but there were those times when the pup needed a reality check. I am not one for putting the pup in the crate out of frustration, but I'd rather deal with the situation and then move on. No grudges, no hard feelings....

Would I do it now with my grown dog....NO! But then again I wouldn't need to as he has been taught the rules of the house and is an integral part of the family. Would I do it with a rescue dog....NO! I might get my face bit off. Would I do it to chastise my (now) grown dog if he were to backslide....NO! The window for that is closed.

I think there is a school of thinking out there that this is a training method which must be done 3 times per day whether the dog has done something to warrant it or not. Example....I was visiting my mother with her then 2 year old dog. Out of nowhere she pulled the dog to her and flopped it over on its back and held it there. I said, "Mom! What are you doing!?" She said, "I know this looks bad but the breeder told us to do this 3 times a day and it will show the dog who's boss. The groomer in town told us to do the same thing but it breaks my heart to do this!" I told her to stop and that this was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard! The poor dog has no idea what is going on, was not doing anything wrong, and out of the clear blue gets "rolled" 3 times a day!

Needless to say....she doesn't do this anymore and the dog just turned 5. He does have a bite history now though. He even bit my mother! Good thing he is a small dog. This method is ridiculous and I hate to think of the poor weak nerved dog who probably ends up peeing all over itself because of this.

If I had another pup would I hold him down by the scruff if warranted? Maybe, but maybe not...since again, I have learned much from the experienced here on this board.

[MonteRiehl]

Hi Francisca,
Since you asked.
I do a "enforced down stay" with my 9 month old boy. I ask him to lay down, and expect him to do it until I say enuf. Sometimes I do it for 10 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes. I don't do it to punish or re-direct him from any problem behaviours. I don't even do it every day. (But a couple of times a week for sure) Our boy was the alpha pup in his litter, so our self control excersises are designed to guide him into the correct place in our family, without breaking spirit.

I do pay attention to his moods and activities and choose when to do it. Asking him to do it in the middle of a play session, or the zoomies is mean, and inappropriate at his age. It's important to have positive energy happening for good results.

I simply want him to understand that he needs to do as he is told, mellow out and be OK with that. I don't use it as a punishment, it's not! It's one of many excersises we do to work on self control. If or when he tries to get up and wander off, I verbally correct him with an "AHHH AHHHH AHHH!" and put him back in to position with the same firm "Lay down, Stay" command. I do not apply vulcan nerve pinches, shove, or manhandle him into position. I don't want it to be adverserial. The purpose of this excersise for me is to instill a normal behaviour with some internalized self control. Fighting with him is counter productive to that purpose, and teaches the wrong lesson.

It is a reasonable expectation that he is able to control himself for a peroid of time, and chillax with us by laying down nearby.

I think that with what you have described in your post, I'd do like Judiw has suggested in her second post. Smile and nod, and ignore. The enforced lay down stay or 30 minute down is a great thing for the right reasons. Learn what those right reasons are, and do what you think is appropriate.

You should understand what the trainer wants to accomplish excersises to do them successfully. I personally must understand and research what the instructor is trying to instill. If it's worthwhile, then I work it in. I don't like instructors that give an assignment without clearly explaining the purpose. If the purpose of this is to dominate an unruly or rowdy dog with that goofy old skool "pin them down" trick, it's not a good idea on a rottweiler. It's a dangerous purpose. It can teach a scary lesson to a smart, powerful dog. Whoever wins the fights gets to make the rules is a bad bad method of raising rotties.

You are the expert on relating to your dog. No one else is going to have the same connection. Research what you think you need to do on this site, in the book stores, and the internet. Ask questions, make good informed choices. Be the expert on your dog. Certainly always seek sage advice, and be open to new ideas, but be the expert.

I have a big mouth... I should go practice my own lay down and stay for self control

Best regards, Monte

[Judi W]

Monte just described the type of down I recommend. It teaches the dog to be calm, to follow instructions and to exercise self-control. However, it is not a frivolous thing that employes a painful pressure point or scruffing type action and for no reason!

[spidey]

This kind of "alpha roll" maneuver is based on completely inaccurate interpretations of wild dog behaviour. It's my considered opinion that trainers who continue to use it don't do their research. Even the Monks of New Skete, who used to recommend this, now specifically recommend AGAINST it in their newest book. Nothing good can come of this, and plenty of bad can.

[Francisca Lopez]

Wow Thanks Monte, this is why I am asking I am sooooo verryyy confused on this method, I personally did not find reason to it that way and my hands are to small to hold her that way anyways so I have to practically roll on her, and I figured she sees that as a challenge from me, but I was wondering if others had found this method to be successful thanks for all your input I am feeling better about not personally liking this method it may be for some........Judi W How is this type of down you speak of executed? I am always eager to find ways to work with my little girl, I have done searches and find load of info here which has helped us get to where we are today, our bumps happen but I jump on the search and try to find others. I do like our trainer other than this move we have seen a great changes in our girl and we will continue to learn and grow................ but are you available for personal training here in the SoutWest I know I know

[MonteRiehl]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Monte just described the type of down I recommend. It teaches the dog to be calm, to follow instructions and to exercise self-control. However, it is not a frivolous thing that employes a painful pressure point or scruffing type action and for no reason!

Hi Judi W,
Yes! I totally agree 110% that pressure points, scruff holds, etc have very good applications. I didn't mean to infer that I don't agree with the correct usages with my post.
The down stay excersise (for me) just isn't one of the applications. If I have to hold him down with a pressure point etc, then I'm wasting my time. I am working this excersise specifically to instill internalized self control behaviours. If I have to hold him down, I'm not really teaching that.

I try to use mainly motivational techniques, but corrections, verbal or physical, are also necessary parts of the training process. Show me a trainer who uses only treats and never corrects, I'll show you a dog that will (eventually) ignore commands when the treat bag is empty and is unreliable.

Francisca, Judi W has previously posted a whole section on the 30 minute down. Use the search function of the forum to find it! It's really worthwhile, and I have found it immensely helpful. (thanks again Judi W for posting it!)

In order for any training excersise to work, I have to understand what I am hoping to accomplish. That helps me to understand when to praise and when to correct. If I don't understand, it's possible to be teaching you dog something you don't want it to learn like aggression.

It sounds like your well on your way to making infomed training decisions. It's all good!
Best regards, Monte.

[Judi W]

I said my down does not use pressure points or scruffing, not at all that they had good applications. I do not use them nor do I ever recommend them for the reasons I stated in my earlier post. A compliant dog does not need them and that is unfair and reduces their confidence as well as any idea that you are fair and a strong dog is simply taught that whoever is strongest wins.

PS, Although I don't use this type of activity, I do not accept this "small hands" business if it is going to be used as a reason for not doing something that would be appropriate. If you believe that your hands are too small to deal with your dog you shouldn't own it. I am <100 and I don't think anyone has ever read anyplace that I am "too small" to do anything except of course shovel wet cement.