The right type of training?

[cuppacoffee]

Hello,
I'm new to the board but I have a question about my rott. First a little background.

He's 4 1/2 yrs old, we got him for Christmas this year. His previous owner (his 2nd, which makes us the 3rd owners) had to give him up cause she and her boyfriend broke up and she could no longer "handle" the dog. Apparently the BF was the disciplinarian and when he left the household, the dog would do anything, including sleep on the couch or the bed, eat food off the table or jump on counters, and this girl wouldn't do anything about it. She's a real softie and has always been a pushover in life. Also, since the rott weighs 120#, she couldn't walk him - she's 100 lb soaking wet and he'd pull her. He maintained his sweet disposition through the entire thing and never became destructive, even when she'd work 14 hr days and didn't walk him for 4 months. She recognized herself as a "bad dog owner" and offered us the dog, knowing we were looking. The previous owner was given an ultimatium by his allergic fiancee "the dog or me" Needless to say, he does have some separation anxiety issues, but we're working through those.

I was completely unfamiliar with the breed when we got him and very nervous about it at first, but he's such an angel that he quickly won me over. (we had adopted a mixed breed dog from a shelter about Nov. timeframe and the dog turned out to have some serious aggresssion/guarding issues - after a couple of biting incidents, the shelter came back, collected her and put her to sleep - so I was very worried about this "vicious" breed) We signed him up for basic obedience training at a local kennel that breeds and shows rottweilers, came highly recommended from the vet and the local club. We are about 3 weeks into the training and all seems to be going well, he was previously well trained, so he's easily the best in the class (he's the only rott in the class, he's also the oldest, most of the other dogs are puppies) However, I have some concerns about the training and I also have some questions.

First, whenever I read about the dispositions of rottweilers, they are described as "stubborn and occassionally dominant" This dog is a far cry from that. The trainer has a very physical training method and this occassionally worries me - last week when a little lab puppy growled at her, she hung him up by his prong collar in the air for about 30 seconds to a minute. Well, anyway, my fiancee has picked up on this aggressive method of training and will regularly scream at the dog for regular commands. For instance, we'll put the dog in a down stay on his blanket in a corner of the dining room while we eat dinner. As we get up from the table, he'll get up with us - since he hasn't been released, my DF will start yelling at him and grab him by his collar and drag him across the floor back to his blanket. As far as I'm concerned, he's still learning and doesn't need rough treatment like that, a simple "Place" would send him right back to the blanket. I really honestly believe that this dog wants to do the right thing. When I start preparing dinner, he automatically goes to lay down to lay in the corner, cause that's what I taught him to do, or if I need to give him a command, I tell him in a gentle, firm voice and praise him for following the command (DF is starting to praise, but still generally barks the commands) DF is former military, current law enforcement and wants the dog to "be a soldier" I'm sure his Marine/police training weighs heavily in the way he trains this dog.

He sleeps downstairs and will sometimes jump on the counters to sniff while we're asleep. (we keep them clear of all food or "interesting" things) He'll never even go near the counters when we're there - DF has yelled and hit him enough times that he's too scared. My DF has decided that the way to cure him of this is to buy an electronic shock collar and then tempt him onto the counters and shock him from upstairs or outside. The trainer agrees with this and is going to provide the training on how to use this collar. Whenever I protest that he's being too aggressive, he claims "You're just like 'Sally'" (the previous owner) and sometimes I worry that maybe he's right - the dog knows I'm the softie. I've read lots of books on dog training and opinions vary so widely, but they're very generic.

This dog seems very submissive and eager to please - but he is a BIG, SCARY looking dog. Is this type of training necessary to "keep him submissive" (like DF says) or could we be gentler with him without losing control?

Sorry for the long post, but there's such a wealth of experience here that I wanted you guys to know where I was coming from. Thank you for your help.

[rottielover2004]

IF your DF is worried about the counters and what he could get into, try crating him at night until he is properly trained. Using a shock collar is very uncalled for and cruel, when there are many other methods to be tried. I am far from being a professional, but I too had, and still have that problem with my puppy, so until he is alittle more polite, he will remain crated at night. Safer for the dogs anyways. Nothing to hurt them

[brunie's mom]

Honestly...I would change trainers. Any trainer that would hang a Lab puppy by a prong collar is NUTS!!!!
Try that with a Rottweiler and the dog may just turn on you! Get your DF to stop hitting and yelling at the dog.

You need to find a trainer that works with positive training....the "yank and pull" training (compulsion) is not used by most trainers anymore. The dog must understand the command first.

I agree...put him in the crate if you are unsure if he will counter surf...put everything out of temptation. No shock collar for this !!!!

Rottweilers need leadership and training....but if your DF is yelling and hitting the dog someone will get bitten eventually. Since you have not had him for long....trust and leadership should be built on....hitting and yelling does not do this.

Gina

[HerculesMomma]

Originally Posted by brunie's mom

Honestly...I would change trainers. Any trainer that would hang a Lab puppy by a prong collar is NUTS!!!!
Try that with a Rottweiler and the dog may just turn on you! Get your DF to stop hitting and yelling at the dog.

You need to find a trainer that works with positive training....the "yank and pull" training (compulsion) is not used by most trainers anymore. The dog must understand the command first.

I agree...put him in the crate if you are unsure if he will counter surf...put everything out of temptation. No shock collar for this !!!!

Rottweilers need leadership and training....but if your DF is yelling and hitting the dog someone will get bitten eventually. Since you have not had him for long....trust and leadership should be built on....hitting and yelling does not do this.

Gina

For goodness sakes, this is the 3rd time I'm trying to reply to this thread. Hopefully I will not time out again before I finish.

Basically I was previously trying to post what brunie's mom said. So I just replied to her thread to say I concur.

Leadership for a dog is a mental thing not a physical thing (read that a few minutes ago in another thread here). Stop hitting the dog!!! You should be building a relationship of trust and I would recommend ditching the trainer also. Just because a dog is a rottweiler does not mean he is a hard dog and it doesn't mean you will automatically have dominance problems with the dog. Yes, the breed does lend itself to having to be firm and consistent with them overall, but even a breeder will tell you that each dog is an individual and their personality will vary. Each dog has it's own temperment, mine is not a hard dog either, so he doesn't get treated with doggy boot camp at home. I am not constantly having to "put him in check" to keep his dominance in line or anything else like that. There are punishments in my house, as well as rules, and they are enforced accordingly without hitting him.

Also, I really thing you can set your dog up for success by doing as brunie's mom suggested - either crating the dog or keeping food off counters. I suspect if there is nothing for the dog to get off the counter, the counter surfing will stop. But to lay a trap for the dog so you can zap the crap out of him just seems cruel !!!

Just my two cents!

[Judi W]

Bullying and abuse are never good and certainly not a training method. I don't know what a DF even is, but I would not allow one to have access to my dog.

[cuppacoffee]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Bullying and abuse are never good and certainly not a training method. I don't know what a DF even is, but I would not allow one to have access to my dog.

DF is my dear fiancee. Sadly, he lives with me and the dog Anyway, I certainly appreciate all the advice you've all given. Lesson learnt - trust your gut. I'm investigating clicker training to see if maybe we can try some structured, gentler training. We only have one more session with her and since she doesn't pay any attention to him cause he's so good, we'll probably go (practicing recall)


PS he's not a bad guy, but his behavior was encouraged by this trainer.. our first one on one session with her, she put a few liver treats on a small crate and when he went for them she yanked him so hard with the prong collar I actually lost sleep over it.

[Judi W]

You know there is a happy medium. In fact, there are training philosophies that involve motivation and corrections when appropriate.

What are your intentions if someone suggests to DF that he treat his beloved fiance in a rough fashion because it will make her a better wife? Seems he might have a bit of a mean streak or he would not be so quick to follow such suggestions to treat the dog unreasonably rough and unkindly

Sorry cupacoffee (I love that name) my twisted sense of humor could not resist.....

At any rate, you might want to explain to him that if he should show himself to be so suggestive regarding how to treat you - you'll clean his clock

[Luvs]

Originally Posted by cuppacoffee

DF is my dear fiancee. Sadly, he lives with me and the dog Anyway, I certainly appreciate all the advice you've all given. Lesson learnt - trust your gut. I'm investigating clicker training to see if maybe we can try some structured, gentler training. We only have one more session with her and since she doesn't pay any attention to him cause he's so good, we'll probably go (practicing recall)

I personally would NOT bother going back for that last session.

Originally Posted by cuppacoffee

PS he's not a bad guy, but his behavior was encouraged by this trainer.. our first one on one session with her, she put a few liver treats on a small crate and when he went for them she yanked him so hard with the prong collar I actually lost sleep over it.

Holy cow!!! This lady calls herself a trainer?!?!?!?! I would seriously question a trainer who uses a prong on a small puppy and then hangs the puppy.
For your dogs sake please find a better trainer! Look for someone who uses motivational methods. I think both you and your dog will be much happier! Before deciding on a trainer, see if you can go watch a class or two to see what their methods are.

Yelling, hitting and getting physical with your dog will only make your dog afraid of you and with good reason I might add.

[Judi W]

Carol - 4 1/2 Year Old dog

[SonnyRott]

I think Luvs was talking about the Lab puppy in class Judi.

Your DF needs to come out of the ice age and read a few books on dogs and dog training. The old school philosophy was to beat the dog into submission to "make" it learn something. It learned something all right....that you were a harsh, unfair and unpredictable dictator.

Trust your gut. Being firm does not mean hitting the dog.

[BostonRott]

Does the training facility reside in a town that starts with an H? If so, I know of the place and probably the trainer and would recommend you find something elsewhere.

Unfortunately, I realize that there isn't anything really good in Boston. You have to travel about 30-45min to find any good training around here. There are 2 new facilities in Taunton that are both supposed to be excellent (lost of positive work). Neither have a website but I can get you info. There's a place in Seekonk that is excellent, http://www.caninemastery.com/ and also a good place in Franklin, MA http://www.masterpeacedog.com .

I would not continue with the brutal training methods, it will not get you anywhere. Sounds like you already have a good handle on the dog's correct temperament, and even if he "looks like a big scary dog," sounds like he's not. Be his friend and leader, not his tyrant.

[cuppacoffee]

Wow, thanks for all the great info. Boston - you've got the place nailed. I'd checked into Masterpeace and had called and made a reservation to come in, but the other place was recommended by so many people, we switched. I'm at the very bottom of Boston, so Franklin's not too far.. Maybe we'll try going to MP for their saturday morning social just to check the place out.

Last night, spurred by all your help, I convinced DF to return the shock collar and we did a little training "my" way. It worked but wasn't quite as effective, so DF was feeling a little cocky. But he really does want to do the right thing.

Judi, DF does actually have a bit of a mean streak - I think it comes with the paramilitary background.. training to him is SERIOUS business, I kind of doubt he got a single "good job" in marine boot camp and he just doesn't think that's any way to train. He's also had rotts before who had more of a "typical" temperment and needed a firmer hand.

I appreciate all the advice you guys have given me and your willingness to read my post! I'm sure my dog will benefit greatly from your help. I'm having a lot of fun reading everybody else's threads and I'm so glad I found this place.

[BostonRott]

I personally don't recommend pure positive, I do feel that dogs need corrections when earned, but I don't train yank and crank either. I use food to initially lure/shape, quickly move to random rewards with food or toys (depending on the activity being taught and the drive levels the dog is working in).

For most of my dogs, a correction is often as simple as a voice correction "ut oh!" when we're training. If the dog is in drive and being an a$$ about something (i.e. not controlling itself while another dog is running agility and being a nuisance), I have no qualms about a solid collar correction or a "3 foot sit" (dog is picked up by fur near neck/jaw line and moved 3 feet backwards into the sit they were supposed to be maintaining )

I do a lot of training out in Auburn MA (near Worcester), literally right off the Pike. The instructor is someone who teaches using clicker and positive, but also isn't averse to giving a deserved correction (though I've almost never seen her do it in class.....I just know she does use them on her own dogs). http://www.collinswoodk9.com

Out of curiousity, was you instructor's name L? I wasn't sure if she was still in dogs or not........I remember taking Bort there 9yrs ago and watching similar antics and thinking "this is NOT how I want to train." I did belong to a USRC SchH club there for a few years before seeking out another one.

Anyway, good luck! If I can be of further help, feel free to email me or PM when you get the capability.

O, and if you're interested in agility, there's a trial in Wrentham at the State school on 4/30-5/1, the Grrrrlz and I will be running (I'll be the obviously 8.5mos pregnant woman).

[BostonRott]

One other suggestion, crate training. It will aleviate night time counter surfing and numerous other issues. There's a place in Woburn right off of Rte 128 where you can order and then drive up and pick up the stuff, MUCH cheaper than any local store....it's a catalog place. http://www.directpet.com

[cuppacoffee]

Boston
Yes same trainer.. Weird part is, she's specifically the one who came highly recommended. Thanks so much for your suggestions on where to train. My dog is just about the clumsiest I've ever owned, not sure how he would perform in agility, he's also terrified of heights (funny to watch) At first I had grand ambitions of agility training, as he's very good at jumping, or tracking, since he loves to sniff (but will struggle mightily to find a piece of food hidden in the snow) But sadly, I think this dog is destined for a CGC and not much more - could probably do the TDI, but I'm still not over MY fear of rotts yet, so I wouldn't want to impose him on anyone else.

I have had it on my planner that I'd do a few run throughs of agility down at MP this summer just to see if he enjoys it, but he'll likely never be competitive. I'd love to see you running your rotts through an agility trial almost ready to burst though!!

Also, you sound like you're a busy soul, but I just found a wonderful book and have been enjoying exploring the greater Boston area since - The Dog Lover's Companion to Boston. The Boston library has a few copies (make sure you get the latest edition) but I renewed it too many times and they got mad, so I bought a copy. If you enjoy exploring parks with your dogs, you might want to check it out.

We're going to work on crate training based on the recommendations, but we're starting with a handicap.. Coffee's last owner used it as a punishment - he's so food obsessed he'll go in if I toss some food in there, but then he cries to get out.. and if we don't let him out, he goes a little nuts - should we just keep at it? Thanks again!