Trainer thinks we need a behaviorist...

[hmeadq]

My pup was not good at class again last night (wandered off during a couple exersices and would not stay down when I was walking around the room) and the trainer suggested we see a behaviorist.

The week before we had had issues with a poodle, so I went into training overdrive. We worked in the most distracting areas possible for an hour or more a day. And at class he did not show any issues with any dogs. I did not let him even look at another dog, which we had practiced during the week (execpt he sniffed a couple butts of his friends before class started.) He was also heeling very well on lead, but to him if I take the lead off that means he can play, we are working on it, but hes OK at home off lead, but until he is a LOT more reliable I cannot take him off lead in public, so how do you practice?

When I took off his lead, its not like he ran to another dog and jumped them, he just walked away sniffing the ground in a goofy way, more interested in what he was smelling then me calling him back. He is a stubborn puppy, thats his breed isn't it? But his is basically good and he is learning, just not as fast as some other dogs.

Sometimes I think the sucession of exercises is to fast. For instance last night we did the serpentine, which we had done before (in the previous class) on lead. First time, it was on lead with a treat. Second time it was with the lead hanging over our neck with a treat and SLOW. Third it was off lead with no treat! He wandered off and went over and sniffed the wheelchair sitting next to the cones. Is it asking two much of a 7-1/2 month old puppy who has been in training for 14 weeks.

Does he need a behaviorist? He is a stubborn dog and a bit slow in training (at least compared with the Austrailians in our class) but I don't think he has major issues. He is on a light duty NILF program, has to sit before going through a door, gets only toys when we give him (which is almost always, but we decide which one), he has to sit or do a task before he can eat or drink. He'll get the puppy zoomies sometimes. He STILL wants to jump on people and say "HI!" Occasionally he'll decide he wants to do something and will bark and fuss if we don't give it to him. If he thinks he may be in trouble he won't always come when he is called. All normal puppy behavior, not tolerated and we do correct him and they are all getting better, but it is normal, right?

I don't know if our trainer is unsure because he is a Rotty or if he is seeing something we are not. I have a call into the behaviorist, but I'm not really sure he needs it. Guess it cannot hurt though.

[Mattweiser]

Hi Heather,

First off, I will say "YES", that is moving awefully fast, especially for a young dog.

I have to say that I am not a fan of group OB for yong dogs. There are way too many distractions there, and it becomes a battle to see who can gain the dog's attention. IMO not the way to begin its life of training.

Secondly, I am very unclear as to what in this instance warrants a "Behaviorist". Seems to me that this "trainer" has learned a nice crutch when it comes to training dogs... "if I can't train the dog, it must need a behaviorist..."

I would say that the dog simply needs more time, more repetitions, and more direction.

also, if the dog is not good off-leash in public, that should tell you one thing.... Don't take his leash off in public... 7.5months is way too young for off leash proofing..... especially in a environmental smorgasborg that is PetsMart.

[damp]

Originally Posted by hmeadq

I have a call into the behaviorist, but I'm not really sure he needs it. Guess it cannot hurt though.

No I don’t think he needs a behaviourist at all but think about if you need another trainer!!!

[BostonRott]

First, an hour a day ("training overdrive") IS WAY TOO MUCH for any dog, but especially a puppy of 7mos.

Running about sniffing and ignoring you is called avoidance. It usually comes out when a dog is stressed about things (also presents as "zoomies" in class, often seen in agility). I'm guessing that your overly long training sessions stressed him out and that as you go to do those same exercises now in class, all the worry comes back.

As to off-leash, he's clearly not ready for it in the class environment and your instructor should NOT be pushing it! I would continue to work on-lead in increasingly more distracting environments for SHORT periods of time (5-10min MAX) and let him re-learn the enjoyment of obedience, and also gain confidence in you two as a team.

When he's older and more mature, then start working on the off-leash. You could practice at fenced baseball parks when they're empty, or other school ball fields (soccer, football). I personally wouldn't rush the of-leash business.

You need to work on the building the relationship between you two also. Short bursts of quick, fun exercise with a big reward at the end. Finish your training while he's still really up and excited, leave him wanting more. If he can do 5 reps well, finish at 3.

I have no issue with group classes, they have their time and place, especially for teaching a dog to work around other dogs/people and work through distraction. I know that private lessons can be expensive, perhaps you could split an hour with someone in your class, and each keep your dog put away while the other is working (to give the atmosphere of the private lesson).

[Troy]

Skip the behaviorist and find another trainer.

See how things go then.

[Judi W]

Until the dog stays reliably and comfortably on lead it should not be pressed for off lead. Then it still starts out wearing the lead and the handler close enough to quickly take the lead and replace the dog. No way the dog should be put in a position to wander around. All that is doing is teaching him that the stay means nothing at all. Slow down. It is not a race.

[hmeadq]

Thanks everyone.

I agree it is not a race. This class was the next in series and seemed like the right thing. But I will not let Doc off lead in the class anymore, excpet in situations where I know he will succed. (Like a short stay followed by a recall.)

I did a little more research on the behaviorist that we were refered to and she does Schutzhund training as well and has lots of experience with German Shepards, Dobbies, and Rotties. So I may go to a consultation with her and get some training tips, make sure that she thinks we are on the right path. Knowing that we do not believe Doc has any behavior problems aside from being a PUPPY! But I don't know that all we are working on know are working on Doc and his thick head.

The more I think about it the more I think my trainer is not comfortable around Doc. The bigger he has gotten, the better he is bahaving but the more she seems like she's not sure about him. Reinforcing that we will have to watch him close around his second birthday becasue Rotties go through a "stage."

I relized this week that she was standing between Doc and a poodle (who Doc has bounced towards the week before) but Doc and I had practiced hard ignoring other dogs and he was paying it no mind, and we were far enough away, that they would not have gotten to each other even if Doc wanted to jump the poodle.

I should have clairfied but our hour a day was not all "ON" time. But I wanted to practice with lots of people so I had to drive 30 minutes to a park where there are always people. So we were there for quite a while. But the heeling and "working" parts were 3-4 sessions of about 5-7 minutes intersperced with walking on the trail with a loose lead and just practicing "leave it" with other dogs. Still asking a bit of him but not as much of an hour of hard practice.

So I guess we will stay in this class since we payed for it and the class I want to do at Cleveland All Breeds Training Club does not start until March. But we will take our next class (Pre novice) there, I think.

I agree that I need to work more on my relationship with Doc. Its not his fault his trainer is a spaz and expects him to move faster than he is ready to move, trying to force him to that speed just will not work. Yesterday we just played tug, and practiced sit stays and down stays when I walked his Kong around the corner.

More petting and loving. Less boot camp. Maybe the reason he seems to not be as "eager to please" as some other dogs is because he has decided that he cannot please me?

Last question is a 12" bar to high for him to be going over at this point? He can step over it but he is much more likely to leap over it! (Granted this same dog leaps off the couch back and from couch to couch when he gets puppy zoomies!)

Thanks everyone.

[BostonRott]

A) Building a relationship does not necessarily mean "more loving and petting, less boot camp." It's about communicating with a dog in a manner that they understand, at the appropriate times, making yourself fun (not fawning). There are quite a few books/articles if you do some searching.

B) 12" is most certainly not too high for him.

C) Keep in mind that he may simply be a lower drive dog, go read the thread on bringing up drives in low drive dogs, and also realize that you must HONESTLY assess what the dog is and always keep that in mind when working him.

[Urika]

What type of issues did he have with the poodle? And when you say "he was not good", what exactly was he doing?

[Brooke&Ryan]

Originally Posted by Urika

What type of issues did he have with the poodle? And when you say "he was not good", what exactly was he doing?

That was discussed in this thread:

http://rottweiler.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43067

[damp]

Originally Posted by Brooke&Ryan

That was discussed in this thread:

http://rottweiler.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43067

Every one who charges money for classes and claims themself a trainer should be smart enough to teach the owners how to handle such a "problem" and it's a admission of failure to redirect them to a behavorist.

[rottnkidd]

Heather - You will be very satisfied with the training experience at CAB.
The instructors are incredibly patient and helpful and will allow time for you after class to discuss problem areas. I don't know where you are currently training, but March can't get here soon enough for you, I'm sure!
Best wishes -
kathy

[Urika]

Originally Posted by damp

Every one who charges money for classes and claims themself a trainer should be smart enough to teach the owners how to handle such a "problem" and it's a admission of failure to redirect them to a behavorist.

I agree. I love love love my current trainer for the handling class Diesel and I are currently taken. She has many solutions for many problems. And what I really like about her is that her breed is the Golden but she knows so much about many other breeds especially Rottweilers.

[targonrotts]

if this was my dog, i'd finish the class for the sake of socialization purposes while i wait for the other class in march.i would not do off leash. and if class is long or too much repetition, i'd step off to the sidelines.
he is a young dog.5-10 minutes at a time is fine with quality not quantity training.
end in a good note.make it fun.find out what he likes for rewards...and eventually you wean him off or to minimum.
this is a very smart breed, but can easily be bored...or at least find shortcuts!

[SABELLESMOM]

Our trainer stresses over and over again about setting the dog up for success. He's quite young and simply needs more time on lead. He will experience success (!) and learn what you are asking of him

Off lead, he's doing what one would expect for a 7 month old Rottie...and turning into a social butterfly. Trying to work with him off lead, at this point only shows him he can do as he pleases...that isn't success.

Our trainer also stresses, if you try something too soon (and the dog shows you by walking away) then go back to where you were before. All dogs do not progress at the same rate, even if the ages were the same.

I doubt he needs a behaviorist! Just tell he you feel it's too early and he needs more time on lead. Then do it.