remote collar - long

[Bastianboy]

Anyone used a shock collar before??? Today we pushed Bastian really hard. We had one hour of obedience (he really did well), followed by one hour of agility (did well here too). Then an hour break and then 2 more hours of agility. He did well in the other 2 hours of agility, but it is a drop-in class meaning that anyone can come, so he is around different dogs, different distraction etc.

Well, from the beginning of the drop-in he had his eye on a cocker spaniel there. He did his first run fine, but on the second one, no one was standing between him and the cocker (of course standing right behind the start) and he went at it. He jumped over it, flipped it over and there was a lot of barking and whining while Bastian pinned him. I do not believe there was any biting at all and in the end no one was hurt, but scared the crap out of all of us. My husband, who was running Bastian, got there really quickly, grabbed Bastian by the sides of the cheeks lifted him off the ground took him out of the area and put him on the ground. LOTS of screaming in his face, etc. He was then put on the fence and had to watch all the other dogs go with my husband and I on the other side of the ring paying absolutely no attention to him before he could go. I wanted to take him home, but the trainer wouldn't let us. There was another lady there who has 2 fantastic rotts and she praised us for our reaction to him and said that her big male did the same sort of thing a few times when he was about Bastians' age and they ended up having to use a shock collar for a few lessons to break him of it. Now he is incredible and doesn't really even look at the other dogs when it's his turn. Our trainer said that she would give Bastian one more time to do something like that and then on with the shock collar. I'm on the fence with that. If we have it on and can catch it before he ever even gets to the dog he's looking at, that could be good, but I really don't want to hurt him bad. As a history, he has NEVER made contact with another dog when he's run at them like that. We yell at him to lay down and then re-call and he does it, or he'll run up to it, turn and come right back. It has always been up to this point an unwarranted attempt to play and every time he gets put on the fence for all the other dogs to go before he does. This aggressive flipping it over was a HUGE shock to all of us. Thoughts??????????????????? As I've said before, I know there's hope, just have to work through it.

[Judi W]

Actually, the correction must come for the "thought" not waiting until his juices are all running and his feet are moving. You correct for the looking. Too many people miss that part of the work thinking "oh, he's only looking, it would be cruel to correct", but what you want to do is erase the very thought. If you are proactive with the work you might not get to where he needs the ecollar but you must be determined. That means limited off-lead work for a while. When you notice he is attempting to focus, you get that lead on and introduce him to aversion. The sequence for the dog is notice, look, thought then goes for it.

In order to interupt that sequence, you correct in a meaningful way at the first part. The notice/look. You can't be a wimp about this and if you keep in mind that if you don't fix it, his life will be very much impacted and everyone will hate to see him coming it will make it easier for you. He gets no sympathy. The fix for this is pure and simple correction for the thought.

[dmoniz]

I use a shock collar on my boxer. The there are many settings that can be used. You have a trainer that is familiar with the collars so that is helpfull. The shock isn't supposed to hurt, it is only to get their attention. There are some really good collars out there with many levels of correction. Start low and slowly increase until you get a reaction. By reaction I mean just a turn of the head in the direction of the stimulus. That's all it takes. Of course, in high drive you may have to increase the stimulation...

[lblax]

i use a shock collar for many things but dog aggression would not be one of them it can actually push them over the edge .. one thing to remember an e collar that is used to break bad behaviour should be a last resort because if it doesnt work you dont have any where to go from there. once you try other tactics if they dont work then you have the ecollar to try they are a tool not a cure all

[Bastianboy]

[quote=Judi W] When you notice he is attempting to focus, you get that lead on and introduce him to aversion. The sequence for the dog is notice, look, thought then goes for it.
QUOTE]

I have come to this realization that this is where I have really failed him. This is our third time through our intermediate obedience class and do a lot of off-leadish work. The leash is still on, but dropped and dragging at their side. I have pretty much broken him of taking off during this because he learned it really sucked when he took off and I stomped hard on that leash with the prong around his neck. I really have made the conscious effort to correct him for even glancing for more than a second at another dog and if I feel he's trying to get eye contact and intimidate it's pop, turn make him focus on me or he gets another pop. I can grab that leash quick, pop it and move on. The problem is coming in agility where he is off leash and Brian is going out for a lead out (which is necessary as Bastian is extremely fast). We had corrected him with a healthy correction for eyeballing the cocker, but as soon as Brian went out for the lead out, he went for it. He knew we couldn't get to him quick and he went for it. His agility skills are getting really good and we're trying to aim for July to start trialing, but this scares me to death.

[Bastianboy]

Originally Posted by lblax

i use a shock collar for many things but dog aggression would not be one of them it can actually push them over the edge .. one thing to remember an e collar that is used to break bad behaviour should be a last resort because if it doesnt work you dont have any where to go from there. once you try other tactics if they dont work then you have the ecollar to try they are a tool not a cure all

What other ideas do you have for this??? I would love to come up with something else. I only know of 2 dogs that my trainer has ever used an ecollar on. One was an aussie that would constantly take off and run far circles around his owner. 2 times using it and he never needed it again.

[Silvermarten]

I've an intense prey drive rott . He's never got another dog but boy is he intrested in them .
I've thought terrable things about "shock collars" and have seen them used incorrectly which added fuel to my negative thoughts on these collars . Recently I switched obedience instructers due to increasing prey drive which was not being addressed no matter how many times I spoke with trainer #1 .
Trainer #2 has a much more open mind and willingness to work with me to help my dog . He has his own remote collar , has used it to train his own dogs , previous class members dogs , and talked with me at length about correct use .
He met with me out of class for a private lesson ( no extra charge ) . I handled my dog and he handled the remote . Not once did I see the jumping or yelping I've seen with other people in the past . I certainly learnt a lot and gained a new respect for these collars in the right hands . Within the 30 minute lesson my boy was able to totally ignore dogs and people running around him . That is an astounding thing for my boy !!!
Obviously one lesson doesn't fix the big problem for my boy but it showed me he can control his prey drive given the right motivation . I'm seriously considering using one myself but first will be looking into more lessons to train me to use it correctly .

Definately find a good trainer that is very familuar with the correct use of remote collars . Used incorrectly you could end up with a much worse behavioural problem .

[Judi W]

I'm sure Larry will have some more, but I am saying you saw him scoping out the other dog, put in the corrections and then turned him loose and hoped for the best. Well, so much for hope. No, you put in the correction and then continue with some work that can be done on lead so that he continues to work and through it. That is what I meant by limited off lead work. You don't have to run full courses, you can do the teeter, the dog walk, the high, the table, and just plain moving around the course. You need to change his thought processes. Staring hurts!

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Staring hurts!

this is the key staring hurts... for one you have a long way to go because in your post you said he has alway run up to the other dogs but always was able to recall so really all this time he was getting away with to much to begin with....
i realize that the stories of putting a shock collar on and correcting the behaviour in 1 or 2 sessions sounds great but it simply doesnt work that way it take conciderable time to just get the dog not being collar wise for example you put the collar on and it stops him a couple times then when you take it off he will succeed because he knows where the correction came from it takes a long time to associated with a shock collar that the correction is a reasult of behaviour.. i simply would not use it for dog aggression , a e collar can be used in several ways it can be a correction or it can actually build drive (just like using a pinch in bite work in some dogs the slight pain and frustration actually builds them up) and you certainly dont want to motivate him more while he is on his way to get the dog.... even though you think your problem is only while he is off lead i would venture a guess tyou are wrong.. he may not take off for them while he is on lead but i would say he is still noticing the other dogs while he is on lead and like judi says staring hurts youre dog must completely ignore the other dogs if you are expecting him to work and the only time you have true control over a dog is when he is on lead. i would for now do everything on lead and timing is important you have to get him busy before he is out of control and if you have to have someone else watch him while you work that way you can correct at even an eye glance , you will probably get lots of suggestions on how to do it but the bottom line is (since this is already a problem) your dog will simply have to come to the realization that it isnt safe to look at another dog period. it will be a matter of timing and reading your dog or should i say thinking ahead of your dog this needs to be handled on lead 1st because with a e collar maybe you'll have control maybe not but with a leash you always have control

[Judi W]

I have done team obedience with all male team. The dogs must do a drop on recall all dropping beside the other dogs. The reason we were able to do this is because those dogs knew that if they looked at other dogs, - it hurt! So, here are all these big boys dropping beside each other and saying "I see nothing"...... If their eyes even strayed towards the other males, they quickly averted them and looked elsewhere. This little story is just so you will know that it does work but you must mean it and not get all feel sorry about it. Yes, it takes time but it is a good investment.

[Bastianboy]

Originally Posted by lblax

this is the key staring hurts... for one you have a long way to go because in your post you said he has alway run up to the other dogs but always was able to recall so really all this time he was getting away with to much to begin with....
i would for now do everything on lead and timing is important you have to get him busy before he is out of control and if you have to have someone else watch him while you work that way you can correct at even an eye glance , you will probably get lots of suggestions on how to do it but the bottom line is (since this is already a problem) your dog will simply have to come to the realization that it isnt safe to look at another dog period. it will be a matter of timing and reading your dog or should i say thinking ahead of your dog this needs to be handled on lead 1st because with a e collar maybe you'll have control maybe not but with a leash you always have control

As a clarification. The running at the start of an agility run has happened only 3 times in the over year and a half we have been doing it. It is not in anyway a normal behavior. The other thing is that the only time he has run at another dog is waiting at the start. Once a run has begun he doesn't pay attention to any other dogs. I definitely will be working very hard with him in not looking at other dogs at all. I let it go too long and now I need to correct more than I would have if someone had told me it could/would lead to more a long time ago (Bastian is our first dog that we have trained). He has always been very friendly and playful, so no one mentioned an issue with him looking at others. Now I have to be stronger with him. I was thinking maybe we put someone holding him at the beginning of a run so he doesn't have the option. The level that he is at in agility is not one that we can run with a leash on. Either we work with the problem at the start or have to pull him out all together for now, which seems to me is avoiding the situation all together. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. THanks for all your input

[Bastianboy]

Originally Posted by Judi W

This little story is just so you will know that it does work but you must mean it and not get all feel sorry about it. Yes, it takes time but it is a good investment.

So, how do you deal with it?? I was told to pop the leash and point him in a different direction as soon as he starts eyeballing someone. THen tell him watch me and praise for the attention on me and not the dog. Is this what you do? He had to do lots of circles today and he gets WAY stressed out when this occurs for long periods.

[Judi W]

well, I guess that is the basic idea. The thing is the dog is any attempt to stare is corrected. I don't know about the circles thing I just get on with some work. If it is the corrections that are causing stress, I don't care. Don't like the corrections, then don't earn them.

[moondog]

Originally Posted by Bastianboy

He has always been very friendly and playful, so no one mentioned an issue with him looking at others. Now I have to be stronger with him. I was thinking maybe we put someone holding him at the beginning of a run so he doesn't have the option. The level that he is at in agility is not one that we can run with a leash on. Either we work with the problem at the start or have to pull him out all together for now, which seems to me is avoiding the situation all together. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. THanks for all your input

. How old is Bastian?

[lblax]

Originally Posted by Bastianboy

So, how do you deal with it?? I was told to pop the leash and point him in a different direction as soon as he starts eyeballing someone. THen tell him watch me and praise for the attention on me and not the dog. Is this what you do? He had to do lots of circles today and he gets WAY stressed out when this occurs for long periods.

i went back through the thread and ive seemed to miss what kind of collar are you using now???

He has always been very friendly and playful, so no one mentioned an issue with him looking at others.

whether out of aggression or out of just wanting to play a dog that is in a working venue is always in trouble if he looks at other dogs

The level that he is at in agility is not one that we can run with a leash on. Either we work with the problem at the start or have to pull him out all together for now, which seems to me is avoiding the situation all together.

personally i feel this is a problem that should be dealt with on leash and if you have to pull him to work on it then thats what needs done its not fair to the others to have this worry over there head is there another kind of training club around or a trainer running a groub ob class that is a good trainer?? some where that they have several dogs all working in close quarters you can fix this else where