Now training without the Gentle Leader

[hmeadq]

Last night our trainer...

The same women who convienced us to use one 3 months ago...

Took away our gentle leader!

We were doing a down/stay on a platform and when we walked away to call him he was trying to get his gentle leader off and did not come when he was called.

Then when we were practicing "walking in a crowd" he was misbehaving (trying to great EVERYONE) she took it off and told us that we could not use it for our CGC, so we should not use it anymore. We have to do advanced class on a flat or choke collar.

I could definatly see a diffrence in him, and not for the better! 7 months old and acting like a teenager already...

But on the plus side he is getting better at down on recall...

[Judi W]

The GL helped you get some physical control during your introduction and now it is time for the dog to learn to be more responsible and for you to require a bit more of him.

[hmeadq]

Yeah I know...

It just made him seem so much better in class... Also made class a bit less physical for me, correcting him now at 70+ pounds, when he is trying to wander off is harder then when he was only 40!

He is a tank!

[Stubby]

Wait until he's 110....

Correcting a dog is not allways a "physical" thing. Don't always need a tug on a choke to get their attention.
You can use your voice for correction as well.

Do you do any focus work with your boy now??

[Judi W]

Ah, but that is the point. "seem better" is external and you now need to work on the internal. Leading him around by the nose was actually more physically controlling than where you are headed now.

[Verbal]

Suzanne Clothier has a wonderful new article on her website called "How Much Does Your Dog's Cooperation Weigh?" at http://www.flyingdogpress.com/weigh.html

She points out that when you're reduced to depending on physical control of your dog, you've already lost as a trainer. While there are some rare short-term situations where physical control is necessary, even for the most highly trained dogs, attempts to out-muscle the dog have no place in training and relationships.

Or, as I explain it to people, they've got four feet to your two, a lower center of gravity, and MUCH sharper teeth... do you really want to make the contest physical?

[hmeadq]

My problem with him is typically when we turn corners and he keeps walking straight because he smelled something.

I don't want to give the impression that I am yanking him about. If his leash starts to get tight he usally corrects himself and comes back to my side. If he does not I say "Doc, side" or "Doc, heel" depending on what we are doing. Only then if he does not come back where he is supposed to be do I pop him.

We are working on focus. I think this week it will be what we concentrate on at home. We do 'watch me's all the time, but when he gets a treat for watching me he is done and looks away. The problem is when he is in a sit stay or down stay. I'm not supposed to say his name, but sometimes until I do his eyes will wander.

But we are still working on it. It is better at home, but class is just long. Advanced class will be 1 hour with a fixed end because there is another class right after, so it should be better. Now sometimes the classes go over 1-1/2 hours.

Its just a little bit like starting again.

Thats a real good article, I am trying to get to that point, where he does not need correction, sometime, someday I'll get there....

[Judi W]

Generally, when you say "watch me" something should happen. A heel, a position change, a ....... If you say "watch me" and then expect any creature to just look at you forever without something going on, it is a bit much don't you think? Sort of like being told you have to look at a wall maybe forever.

Primary for the sits and downs is that the dog remain in the position you left it in. Not that his eyes never leave your face. What are you going to do when you must leave instead of standing in front of the dog? It is correct that you should not say his name during those exercises. Using the name indicates action and prepares the dog for movement.

[hmeadq]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Generally, when you say "watch me" something should happen. A heel, a position change, a ....... If you say "watch me" and then expect any creature to just look at you forever without something going on, it is a bit much don't you think? Sort of like being told you have to look at a wall maybe forever.

Primary for the sits and downs is that the dog remain in the position you left it in. Not that his eyes never leave your face. What are you going to do when you must leave instead of standing in front of the dog? It is correct that you should not say his name during those exercises. Using the name indicates action and prepares the dog for movement.

Your right, but if he is in a down stay and I am 10 feet away I can see him start to get antsy and I know when he is about to try to get up. If I say watch me and he does at that point it returns his attention to the task at hand. I do not expect for him to stare at me forever, sometimes his attention span amazes me, other times though

Thanks everyone for giving me good advice, I never knew there was so much to know and there were so many pitfalls in training a dog!

(( I was talking with my faince' last night and we were thinking that based on his behavior now at 7 months old after 3 months of training I see no way he will ever make CGC let alone CD. Without CGC it seems silly to even think about agility, rally, or tracking. Plus his nose is to long, I don't think we could even get him an ILP, so everthing else is academic. ))

[Judi W]

When you see him start to get antsy, give a small "ahhahh" indicating that he is in danger of being "wrong"................. he will look at you when you do that, that is fine, but do not squander your "watch me" credit. That should have more meaning that simply don't squirm.

When you are coming to your corners or other areas when you know he's likely to think he is leading, give him a verbal caution and a small pop before he is totally out of position. Help him out by giving him a forewarning. You will drop that later as he starts to realize that he has some responsibility in this thing. Leading him around by the nose all this time made it unnecessary for him to do any of the work. Now that is going to be changing.

[hcelsa]

Originally Posted by hmeadq

(( I was talking with my faince' last night and we were thinking that based on his behavior now at 7 months old after 3 months of training I see no way he will ever make CGC let alone CD. Without CGC it seems silly to even think about agility, rally, or tracking. Plus his nose is to long, I don't think we could even get him an ILP, so everthing else is academic. ))

It may seem that way now, but if you continue with obedience classes and regular practice outside of class you'll have a wonderfully well behaved boy in time. Just know that patience is the key (Rottweilers mature slowly, especially the boys), it'll be a couple years, and then you'll be missing his goofy puppy behavior!

Also, don't fret about his nose being long for an ILP, he just has to look basically like a Rottweiler (and be neutered), but he doesn't need to fit the standard to a T . I've seen some ILP'ed dogs that barely look anything like the breed they're ILP'ed as!

[Judi W]

Please see the smile on my face while I tell you that it takes me years to train a dog and I'm a pretty darn good trainer with lots of experience so............... unless you think you're a much better trainer than I, at three months you're just getting started. The point is not how fast you do something, but to enjoy the journey.

[Laura]

[quote=hmeadq]Your right, but if he is in a down stay and I am 10 feet away I can see him start to get antsy and I know when he is about to try to get up. If I say watch me and he does at that point it returns his attention to the task at hand. I do not expect for him to stare at me forever, sometimes his attention span amazes me, other times though

I would like to add one thing about down and sit stays. Dogs do a lot of communicating with there eyes. I don't know if you are doing this but if you stare at him with hard eyes like trying to keep him in position with your eyes you might be sending a different message to him. He might think that you are mad at him and he is doing something wrong so he might break the sit or down. I usually look with soft eyes and a small smile on my face to tell her it's ok that she is sitting or lying down with a row of strange dogs and I am happy with her.

A friend of mine has a Malamute with an ILP# who has the biggest ears (she jokes about them too) who just got her CD.

[hmeadq]

Originally Posted by Judi W

Please see the smile on my face while I tell you that it takes me years to train a dog and I'm a pretty darn good trainer with lots of experience so............... unless you think you're a much better trainer than I, at three months you're just getting started. The point is not how fast you do something, but to enjoy the journey.

I wrote out Doc's proposed training schedule for the next 6 months, including Tracking and Obedience. It is just overwhelming to think how far we have to go. But then I look, honestly, at how far he has come, and it is encouraging.

With the spring/summer coming the time avilable for classes will go down quickly as we crank up our Market Garden.

I should send for his ILP soon, before he starts looking less Rotty! (They cannot take it away later can they?) With a tail, a longer nose, and waves in the hair on his back (which I doubt you will be able to see in the photos) he is hardly breed standard but he does deffinatly look like a Rotty. He is also in his lanky phase, I imagine he'll start bulking up pretty soon.

I wish I had an oppurtunity to train an "easier" dog before jumping in to Doc, but when a puppy finds YOU, your his! Everyone is right, we just need to stick with it, sometimes I look at him, and remember dogs I saw at the last show we went to and just don't see the path. So I guess I need to just trust my trainers! and myself.

Is 10 months to young to plan on him getting his CGC?

[Judi W]

Don't know what easier dogs you've been looking at but people train the dog they have and all have different needs. No, 10 mos is not too young for a CGC at all. However when you get to competitive events, it takes not just training, but seasoning and maturity. I hope your schedule is for training and not for reaching a certain accomplishment level. If it is the later you will either be disappointed, or your dog will.