Defense x Prey Training

[Rafael]

I have some questions that I would like to discuss with the members of this forum. When talking about defense drive I am a little bit confused. Not about its meaning ,but the reason why you should train dogs in it. So I have been reaserching and I have found out some interesting point of views. One is from the Sgt Lou Castle (LA) and his Stake Out Test (by the way one of the best tests I ever seen). He says that when looking for a K-9 prospect he doesn’t mind having a dog with zero defense drive , and if the dog has some , he prefers just a little. Another definition that I have found curious is the Ed Frawleys’ one ,where he states that real fight drive is something acquired by the dog through training plus his defense and prey drive. So here it goes :

1-What happens when training a dog in defense when the dog doesn’t have the defense drive ?
2- Why a police K-9 can’t be trained solely in prey drive ?
3- Is it possible to train a dog in civil work ( no equipment) only in prey ?
4- This is my biggest doubt and most wanted reply :Why people want a dog with defense drive (even if just a little) if defense ALWAYS (stress always) comes from fear of something ? A tough dog that fears nothing, has no defense drive or is just something that is there but really hard to reach.?

5-A lot of Sch , French, Mondio and Belgium ringers train their dogs only in prey and their dogs still doing their job really god. So the final question: why train a dog in defense ,if
defense arises when the dog is under stress , fear or pain ,or when he sees something as a threat, so if the dog sees something as a threat ,this dog isn’t qualified.?

Regards
Rafael

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Rafael:
1-What happens when training a dog in defense when the dog doesn’t have the defense drive ?

If the dog does not have genetically inherited defense drive, you cannot implanted on the dog, no matter what you do. Better yet: you cannot get out of the dog something that is not there.

Originally posted by Rafael:
2- Why a police K-9 can’t be trained solely in prey drive ?

Because a police dog needs to have a tested proven courage with an intense drive that makes the dog willing and eager to confront a human threat, under stressful circumstances, with the intent to prevail in the fight. In the other hand, a dog biting in prey drive only is in a "playing mood", under no stress. A prey driven dog will quickly disengage a fight, due to the stress induced by a human threat .

Originally posted by Rafael:
3- Is it possible to train a dog in civil work ( no equipment) only in prey ?

This question is not very clear. I don't want to make assumptions.

Originally posted by Rafael: 4- This is my biggest doubt and most wanted reply :Why people want a dog with defense drive (even if just a little) if defense ALWAYS (stress always) comes from fear of something ? A tough dog that fears nothing, has no defense drive or is just something that is there but really hard to reach.?

This question is also a bit confusing. So I'll do my best. Some people want just sport dogs, where an intense prey drive will accomplish such purpose. The sport dog will bite and all, but will not be submitted to the intense stress of a real fight. Other people want dogs that can actually reliably protect in real life scenarios, so dogs with defense drive are wanted. Defense drive is interpreted by some people as fear. I don't. I believe that defense drive is exactly that: the intense desire to defend and protect him/herself and the pack when under attack or under stress.

A dog that "fears nothing" is, in my opinion, a very courageous dog. This kind of dog may have an intense defense drive or it may have pure fight drive, which is another term you left out. Fight drive is not common, in fact, a dog with it stands out from the rest.

Originally posted by Rafael:5-A lot of Sch , French, Mondio and Belgium ringers train their dogs only in prey and their dogs still doing their job really god. So the final question: why train a dog in defense ,if defense arises when the dog is under stress , fear or pain ,or when he sees something as a threat, so if the dog sees something as a threat ,this dog isn’t qualified.

True. Many sport dogs are trained in prey drive only and they do quite well in all those competitions arenas that you mentioned. Those high prey drive dogs bite the decoy's sleeve, and even the decoy's body suit, like "alligators" under apparent stress but not really. See, the thing is, dogs high in prey drive are exploited to bite the sleeve or suit by the decoy presenting the sleeve or moving in a prey drive motivated manner. Those sport dogs rehearse those biting drills in a game styled training, thus feeling little, if any, stress. They learned what to expect from the decoy. Even the stick is used in a way that the dog sees as not a "big deal", because after all: it will not hurt. Therefore, some of those dogs may look tough in trial competitions, but in real life they cannot handle REALISTIC STRESS. That is exactly why personal protection, police and military dogs are trained in a different way. And that is also why sport dogs have to be crosstrained in personal protection to make them reliable and trustworthy in protection. The methods of training for real life personal protection are more realistic than those used in sport training. A real protection dog has to have an intense drive that allows him/er to face stressful situations without hesitation. A dog with prey drive alone cannot handle the stress produced from a real threat.

[Lora Lee]

German..You are awesome! I bet your k-9's are too!!!!

[Rafael]

Thanks German , even though my english sucks you answered most of it and i am really grateful.

The third question about civil work , what i meant is it possible to train a dog with no equipment at all and the decoy act like a prey to work the dog only in prey drive ?

German, you also said something that confuses me a lot and that is the whole reason of this thread.
Isn't a dog that works in defense afraid or better yet not confident ?
One may think ,if you are 100% confident, you wouldn't be threatened by anything and of course you wouldn't have to "defend" yourself.

Regards
Rafael

[rottypiper]

Well said German. Saved me alot of typing. Rafael, to answer your question about civil work and prey drive, yes you can work a dog in prey drive without equipment. You agitate without pressure (eye contact, body positioning, threatening gestures, physical contact). If your running around in front of the dog and he is lunging to get you and you are posing no threat to him he isn't in defense but prey drive. He's chasing you, the same as he would a rabbit.
This is why alot of dog bites occur with children. They don't have equipment on but instead are running around playing and yelling and this builds the dogs prey drive to chase. Once they start chasing and if they are not trained to inhibit their bites they may bite the child.

A dog that works in defense is not always afraid. If a small person walked up to me and started poking their finger in my chest to provoke a fight, I would not be afraid. Therefore when I defended myself it wouldn't be out of fear. The same can be applied to a dog. Another form of defense drive is to run away. If the dog chooses to fight through the stress it isn't afraid. A dog that was afraid would probably try to run away. This is avoidance. If the dog was unable to run away and the stress continued he may bite out of fear.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Lora Lee:
German..You are awesome! I bet your k-9's are too!!!!

Thank you Lora, you are too kind ;) :)

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Rafael:
...German, you also said something that confuses me a lot and that is the whole reason of this thread.
Isn't a dog that works in defense afraid or better yet not confident ?
One may think ,if you are 100% confident, you wouldn't be threatened by anything and of course you wouldn't have to "defend" yourself.

Rafael,
Rottypiper, answered your third question quite well. You can train a dog, inborn WITH defense drive, in civil agitation by using several methods that bring out the dog's desire to engage in the fight with a human threat. E-mail me, if you want to, and I will expand in the subject.

In regards to your above question, let me say this: defense is about counter-attack. If the dog is threatened for real, the dog will have the drive to confront the human threat with the intent to dissuade the attacker by furiously counter-attacking. So, where is the fear you talk about? Fear is when the dog uses its avoidance drive to flee away from the threat. That's the big difference. Now, maybe you are referring to a dog with fight drive, instead of defense drive. Well, those are very unique dogs. However, these kind of dogs fare well only in the hands of truly experienced dog handlers, or better yet: for police, military and/or correctional prison service. Dogs with fight drive are not for the average dog owner. In any case, having a dog with a balanced defense drive and prey drive is what makes an ideal personal protection dog. I don't think you want an anti-social attack dog (offensive), that has no respect for most human beings, except a few that the dog tolerates around. Am I right? ;)

[ February 11, 2001: Message edited by: German Vanegas ]

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by rottypiper:
Well said German. Saved me alot of typing.

I appreciate it rottypiper, really! Some people think that I know "dog $#^t", because I demonstrate my knowledge in my own personal way, without the "sugar and cherry on top" ;) :D

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by WorkinDogz:
German...excellent Sir. Excellent.

Thank you for your kindness... my worshiped counter-part ;) :) :D

[Mattweiser]

German, Rotty, Workin....


Outstanding replies.. You guys (with a few others) are what makes this site such an endless supply of information.. Keep on doing what you do... and (German) don't listen to some people that criticize you for helping others....

-Matt

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Mattweiser:
...and (German) don't listen to some people that criticize you for helping others....

Thanks Matt! I don't ;)

[Mick Trainer]

German,

Great responce my friend. :)

Mick.

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by Mick Trainer:
German,

Great responce my friend. :)

Mick.

Thank you MY friend :)

[German Vanegas]

Originally posted by damp:
Thank you German!
Once again a ”must save and print ” post. :)

Thank you! My inconditional supporter and friend, Damp :)

[damp]

Thank you German!
Once again a ”must save and print ” post. :)