The saga of Bella and the dumbell (long)

[LynnS]

Just thought some other newbies out there might benefit from our struggles and triumphs (I am feeling a bit dramatic this morning LOL)...

Background - Bella has been taught new behaviors using operant conditioning (we use a marker word and reward)...corrections introduced once she absolutely understands what is expected....

Round one with the dumbell: Trainer recommends building tons of drive around dumbell by hiding it and bringing it out daily, fawning over the dumbell (of course the dog must be present to watch you making an ass out of yourself) and putting it away (note that I have no objection to making an ass out of myself as I do this daily anyway)...great success - Bella now thinks this must be greatest toy in the entire universe...step 2 is to wait for dog to get mouth remotely close to dumbell progressing up to the point where dog willingly takes and holds (I am cutting out a lot of boring steps here for readers benefit)...ok so let me understand this. After step 1 I have a dog that really wants to snatch this thing right out of my hands and I am supposed to what???? lets just say it did not work. But it was a great way to insure that if a dumbell was being thrown anywhere in the training facility, Bella would completely lose it.Trainer than suggests playing a game like tug with the dumbell which Bella loved but did not result in her understanding a thing. This long drawn out zero results experience ended when I decided that I was doing more harm than good and put the dumbell up on a shelf....

Fast forward about 6 months with new trainer (private lessons) who makes it clear that she uses a forced method of teaching dumbell excercises (she said this with a twinkle in her eye) she also made it clear that her primary objective is to gain compliance using the least amount of force (different for every dog)

Step 1 - place dumbell in front of dogs mouth (dog is in a sit) give command (up until this point Bella would take anything I asked using this command EXCEPT DUMBELL and joyfully carry it around) - when nothing happens force dog to take Dumbell (in Bella's case I just opened her mouth and put dumbell in mouth, closed mouth) tell dog hold placing upward pressure on bottom jaw - after a few seconds give Out command (give - whatever word you want) and remove pressure (at which point Bella automatically dropped)...progress in baby steps until dog holds dumbell without handler assistance (insistance LOL).

Step 2 - get dog to take the dumbell on her own and hold (lightweight chain slip collar on dog held snugly by handler at back of neck) - this one went fast and involved giving the "take it" command and when she didn't
pulling up on collar (creating mild discomfort) for a few seconds and releasing, at which time Bella immediately took the dumbell and held it.

In summary it has taken us about 4 weeks to get from zero to the point that Bella will trot a few feet up to the dumbell (held by me) take it and hold...

It feels good to be moving forward again (in all areas of training not just this one excercise). I feel fortunate to be with a very experienced trainer (who trains using a variety of techniques) who can easily determine what tools will work best for us and have realized the importance of remaining flexible...

Ok is everyone asleep yet??????

[jas'smom]

I read your description with great interest as Jas will be starting this same exercise soon She is showing great interest in the dumbell and will walk over to it and pick it up and carry proudly. Although, not on command Sigh.....I guess we have much to look forward too as well

[Miabella]

Well, there are many ways to skin a cat...er, teach retrieving. I prefer a motivational method for teaching the exercise, but I do use a correction for not retrieving once the dog understands the exercise. For Ilsa, I think she's needed a correction all of twice in her entire retrieving career because she lives for the dumbell.

I initially teach the dog to "take it" by holding a treat behind the db bar. When the opens its mouth to go towards the treat, pop the db in her mouth and gently hold her mouth closed for a second by holding up the chin. Then give them an "out" command and gently take the db and give the treat. You then build up the amount of time she holds the db.

I think it's important not to skip steps, I like to have a really solid "take it", "hold", and "out" before I add movement. In the meantime, you can continue to build db drive by teasing her with it when you are not actively training.

[LynnS]

Originally Posted by Miabella

Well. there are many ways to skin a cat...er, teach retrieving. I prefer a motivational method for teaching the exercise, but I do use a correction for not retrieving once the dog understands the exercise. For Ilsa, I think she's had to be corrected all of twice in her entire retrieving career because she lives for the dumbell.

I teach the dog to initially "take it" but holding a treat behind the db bar. When the opens its mouth to go towards the treat, pop the db in their mouth and gently hold their mouth closed for a second by holding up the chin. Then give them an "out" command and gently take the db and give the treat. You then build up the amount of time they are holding the db.

I think it's important not to skip steps, I like to have a really solid "take it", "hold", and "out" before I add movement. In the meantime, you can continue to build db drive by teasing her with it when you are not actively training.

I think take it and hold will continue to be the drill for a while (I am sure her reasons for having dog move forward a few steps to take it will become clear over time)

I like your suggestion about building drive (since we are no longer in hyper drive LOL) and will try it Thanks!

[Miabella]

p.s. I would also recommend Sue Sternberg's Guide to the Inducive Retrieve booklet and Shirley Chong's website.

[debbiej]

thanks for posting this. this is more or less the method we were being shown in our class. there was one doberman that was really testing his owner.. although he knew the retrieve, he was really unreliable with it, he would gallop on past his owner. our instructor dropped everything and we all watched while she insisted the dog complete the retrieve. watching this made me realize it's good for the dog to enjoy the excercise, the dumbell and all, but they will have days. If a person is going to competing in obedience, the retrieve has to be as solid as sit and downs, huh? so it isn't a game of fetch, but an absolute. Hilda was very eager to try, and took the dumbell, the lady got so excited, and I thought "what's the big deal?". I'm sure she wanted it just because the other dogs had one.

[MontanaRott]

Guerin would take the db all day long from Phil's hands. But would not pick it up from the floor. The forced retrieve as tried by our trainer was a dismal failure, Guerin took umbrage and let her know THAT was not a good thing. So when talking to my aunt about other matters(she trained and trialed a couple of dogs to their UD's) she said "for heavens sake just throw it". So Phil tossed it and low and behold Guerin picked it up and came to Phil and did a perfect front. He is now a db retrieving fool! And last week started retrieving over the jump.
Right or wrong it did the trick.

[LynnS]

Originally Posted by MontanaRott

Guerin would take the db all day long from Phil's hands. But would not pick it up from the floor. The forced retrieve as tried by our trainer was a dismal failure, Guerin took umbrage and let her know THAT was not a good thing. So when talking to my aunt about other matters(she trained and trialed a couple of dogs to their UD's) she said "for heavens sake just throw it". So Phil tossed it and low and behold Guerin picked it up and came to Phil and did a perfect front. He is now a db retrieving fool! And last week started retrieving over the jump.
Right or wrong it did the trick.

That is a great story Shirley - but Guerin already had a solid take and hold (foundation) miss priss wouldnt take or hold (until recently)

[MontanaRott]

Originally Posted by LynnS

That is a great story Shirley - but Guerin already had a solid take and hold (foundation) miss priss wouldnt take or hold (until recently)

LOL! Well that is HALF the battle! ONWARD!