Am I giving him too much? Just right?

[Wally31]

I have had some dominance issues with my boy, he's five months. I was reading some posts in the training section and saw this:

"Life of course should not be a constant state of formal commands, but formal commands when used should have consistent expectations as to what is demanded on the part of the dog."

That right now is what I am doing, constantly giving formal commands and insisting he follow the commands. My Tuck has gotten a little big for his britches and feels he does not always have to listen. I am afraid now that I am pushing a little hard because he is on a serious NILIF life right now but I refuse to let him feel he can do what he wants. How do you know when enough commands are enough?

This whole NILIF training and intensity is due to a bite, from lack of our knowledge previously it resulted in our girl getting bit. It was our fault, we set him up for failure by not being aware of his dominance tests and missing these signals. We had no idea the things he was doing were dominance tests. He has had obeidience school and the things he did there were of the same nature yet she never made mention of them. In fact, as to my memory she only mentioned to talk to her after class if your pet is growling at other dogs or people when he has a bone. Our dog never did it until after he was done with obedience school. Really wish she would have addressed in front of everyone many would have benefitted and we might not have had a bite.

I really only give him the commands when he looks like he is going to go visit our unfriendly cat and have a conversation with him. Feeding, before we go outside for a bathroom break, outside when I want to go in the house, if he is in the way when you want to walk through (which if he is laying down refuses to move and you have to command him a dozen times or physically move him, he lays like he is dead), or just getting into something in general, etc. It feels like it is every other minute though.

I really don't call him over that much just to give commands unless we are going to train but I have focused more training commands without reward right now. I maybe should be including rewards sometimes but he is doing pretty good. The big problems are getting him in the house from outside, he listens to me much of the time but hardly ever listens to my girlfriend. She will walk twords him to more or less heard him in the house and he walks away from her so she can't get near him. (very ammusing when watching from the window when you can't be seen, but very serious in the world of control.) He needs more training for "come" obviously but man can he be stubborn!!! Walking was until we found one of them there new fangled miracles they call in these parts the "pinch" collar. Before he would just drag me down the street. Now after two days what a joy to walk him. : ) I am pleased!!!!

The other toughy is drop it. I am going to start trading him for better rewards to see if it helps some. I am sure by now it is painfully obvious to everyone it is our first puppy. We skipped right over the cocker spaniel and went right to the Rott. At times it feels like I am not sure how to handle him and feel in question of how to cure, but I am determined and dedicated to producing a good boy. Any input would be appreciated.

[MontanaRott]

I sure hope you and Tuck are making some headway, since your last thread about him biting your daughter over a bone.
There was some very good advice offered in this thread.

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/showthread.php?t=42080

[Judi W]

The one thing I have to emphasize, is that he has barely started his formal training so he is not finished with classes, but barely beginning. The Rottweiler should remain in obedience classes until it is at least 3 years of age even better longer than that. No instructor can predict from babyhood through adolescence and into adulthood. There are many things that can make those transitions easy or hard, but hard is when you attempt to skip elementary school, HS and college and think you can end up in grad school. Each level is buiilt on the previous learning. Even those of us that have trained many dogs to advanced titles keep our dogs in classes so you can see that being a novice this is doubly important.

Give your dog an opportunity to enjoy life as a dog. It should be a happy life with an accepted leader but being a leader does not mean being a bully and regulating every breath. I understand that you are reacting to an unpleasant incident, but the secret in all is balance.

[Wally31]

Well he is much more obedient than he was that is for sure. He is coming around to the idea that there are rules that will be inforced at all cost but really dislikes it. I am doing most of it but my girlfriend does some as well. I only have the girl do "sit" so far and we are right there to support her. He is doing well for her. He will sit right away most times, he holds out on her occationally and I help her make him sit. He loves her and respects her almost as much as us, just not when it comes to bones. I think in the same situation he would have bit my girlfriend and he would have thought about it for quite a while but would have bit me as well. He feels I am dominant but challenges it frequently because of what we allowed unknowingly before.


The part that bothers me the most is I was sitting three feet away when he bit the girl and was not able to do anything because there was no time and he never growled. Yet another example of our lack of knowledge (by the way when I say "our" I mean me) When he growled I scolded him thinking I would send the message not to bite but what I really did was train him not to growl. He growls again now but it took a little over a week for him to get it back.

I think in another week we will see a little more progression and the week after more but it will be slow. He really is trying to hold on to doing what he wants to do but you can see his frustration and that he knows he is losing. The part that makes me feel good though is that after he has lost a step and gives in to the command after a hard fought tussel he licks my chin. He really is a loving dog we just didn't know we were confusing him in the scale of rank.

He gets no bones at this point and he is hand fed one meal by me, one by the girl (with supervision of course), and one with my girlfriend. We are taking our time to get back to the bowl. I would like to set a hard line example so he does not cross it again. I am planning for hand feeding for a minimum of three weeks. He has responded well to that but it is not much different than giving him a treat really.

He did well for a long time, he only started growling two weeks before the bite. We are going to do some heavy trading when we build back up to bowl status with any actual amount of food quantity. I want it to be like picking up the morning news when you pick up his bowl when he is eating. He will only get a few kibbles at a time for the first few weeks when he gets the bowl back. I am really not going to rush this at all, I want to send a crystal clear message.

Since the bite I have done a lot of research. I still don't understand some of what I have read and have heard many different ideas of what to do. I am not sure what direction to take and when to do it sometimes but that is why I am here.

We have our first meet with the behaviorist Friday at six and that should help quite a lot. The other good part is I am having surgery on Jan. 4th and will be home with him for two weeks and if the behaviorist says it is required the training can get intense. I feel we will claim victory in the end.

[Judi W]

I would have loved to hear you say you had signed him up for more obedience classes and that you were committed to keeping him in them. That is where and how the bonding takes place.

[SonnyRott]

Hi Wally -

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you've got some power struggles going on over there.

Your puppy is just that....a puppy quickly leaving his babyhood behind. I sense he is feeling frustrated with your uncertainty and frequent demands. You need to relax a little and enjoy this time with your puppy.

You can start by taking him out to see the world and show him what a fun place it can be. Don't worry about him being perfect....there is a time for training and a time to relax and enjoy each other. Take him to the park and play with him. Bring along a tug and a ball. Do this everyday. Make sure he gets plenty of exercise, everyday. Bring a long line with you and clip it on if you do not have good recall with him yet. Never call him to you to punish him. If he doesn't come right away, that's what the long line is for....wheel him in and praise him. Be fair and he will respect you.

Also, I wouldn't have three people feeding him out of their hands to teach him a lesson. If you feel you must make him eat the first bite out of your hand then so be it, but then leave him alone to finish the rest of his meal. Keep the little one away from him when he is chewing or eating. Respect his space.

Keep him in weekly classes. At home, break up his training into 2 or 3 quick sessions per day (no more than a couple minutes each). If he fails something, patiently go back to the previous step. Build on small successes. Make it fun and really get excited when he gets it right.

I know there is alot of info out there but take it one step at a time, on incident at a time. I think he may be acting out due to mixed signals and frustration.

Good Luck!

[Wally31]

Judy thanks for the advice, I am going to try to blend fun into things and not be so insistant. I will do as much as I can with patience and be accepting if he has a hard time with some things. I guess take the "more bees with honey approach" and only correct when it is warranted. I am going go back to training by rewards.


I have now read the other replies from the link that was posted by montanarott. I/we never leave the girl in the room with our boy alone. She is given help with him before she needs it. She yells leave it on her own when he grabs her toys (you know how kids are about toys she is six) and most of the time he drops it right away (he never takes them from her hand) all other commands are with me. I personally let him chew her toys up as a lesson, you are responsible for your toys.

The other part is that everyone has stated she should not be around him when he is eating. I obviously don't want her trying to take his food bowl away or anything like that, but I was hoping for her to be able to walk by him to go do something without there being a bite. Such as throw something on the garbage which is in the area of his food bowl. I as a child was always taught never to bother a dog when he is eating. I now have read a ton of things that say you should be able to take his food away. So which is it? or is it only if it is dire need?

From those posts I feel like they say my daughter shouldn't be around the dog really at all. I have told her never to run up on the dog in fact two days ago, and told her if she did it again it would be the longest time out she has ever experienced. I worry a little about her scaring him when he is sleeping but aside from food he really is a relaxed dog. Now don't jump on me saying "you are trivializing the situation" because I am not I am just trying to get the clearest information possible. I worry just not like I worry with the food.

Should she be taking part in his training? As I stated I plan on focusing heavily on trading to make him more relaxed. Obviously this is not something she would participate in but what about basic commands and obiediance? My feeling (but as I have stated am a beginner) was that if she participated she would be given more respect from the dog and could if a bad situation arose handle the dog well enough to get him in the crate/out of the house, what have you. Is this thinking nieve? Should I stop all training with her? Just where food is concerned? Participate here, but never here!

I am really trying my hardest to do best by this dog and the whole family. Please don't chastize me, I am just looking for a more cut and dry - do not do this! this would be alright but there is a grey area of concern so think twice, then think again. It is alright for her to play and run as children do or the dog should be in his crate?

I just really would like her to feel the dog is hers as well, not just something she can look at and not touch. If there are things she can do I want her to be apart of it. She loves animals more than anything and I want her to experience what she can. Things she can not do I really want her to know about and protect her from them. I really never want this to happen at all. In a way it was a blessing, it was an eye opener that we are doing something wrong - GET HELP!. I am just glad it was a minor bite that was just a little more than you common cut. Thanks again for all of your help.

[Wally31]

Judy in one of the posts above I put in we are going to a behaviorist for more training this Friday. It will not end there, I will do what it takes for our boy to be a good dog.

[Judi W]

Child and dog.

I think that the 3 or so minutes it takes a dog to eat its dinner are not too much for a child to simply politely leave the dog alone and I don't know of anything so urgent that would cause that to change. Yes, it is old fashioned to say, leave the dog alone when it is eating, but even some old-fashioned ideas have merit.

I have raised children with Rottweilers and vice versa. I do not believe that any child has the presence to be dominant to a dog like the Rottweiler and having the child issue commands does not change that. The dog may or may not respond, but believe me, if it responds it is not out of a sense that the child has the lead. It is out of courtesy only. However, my dogs were always raised that the children are mine and are to be treated with respect and ditto the child to the dog. The dogs were mine and were to be treated by the children with kindness and respect. The dogs were actually expected to treat all people with respect and kindness. So, rather than the frustration to the child if the dog does not obey, or the confusion of receiving words from someone who could not possible enforce them, my children were tasked with teaching the dogs tricks using treats. It builds a relationship without pressure. There are several decent books to give you ideas. Look at books by Carol Lea Benjamin.

I am not one who thinks that all training is lured with food however, I do not like to see a dog live a life of misery by being bullied. That is the balance I was speaking of. There should be a difference between formal commands and relaxed every day living.

As time passes and the pressure of insecurity (yours and the dog's) you will all learn more about one another, how to read what is happening and how to understand what is a big deal and what is not a big deal. When the dog learns to trust you will find less and less of the guarding stuff. I would not ask a child however to be the teacher on this. Children do not read sublties and it is unfair to ask them to. Dogs actually do a remarkable job of learning to live with another species and fit in. Think about it. This is a baby, only on this earth 5 months! And how much he understands already! Amazing. Keeping that in mind, sensible handling and understanding and you will be fine.

[Wally31]

Thanks Judy. That is exactly what I was looking for.

I was really unsure of how to go about any of these topics. I feel much better and feel I should revert back to how things were before. Just using training to avoid his dominance tests and keep the happy attention he was getting before the bite, rather than forcing pack position and commands on him. I will not forget the bite and drop all caution but I will ease up and nurture his growth and development.

The girls commands to him have not been stern in nature and she has just asked him to do things so that is the great part she doesn't get frustrated if he doesn't do things. ( Her attention span is shorter than the puppies, so if he doesn't do it she gives up and goes to play.) She is of very happy nature with animals and loves them.


It was my girlfriend who posted the linked questions and she never got the full story out and some people jumped on her I am glad that didn't happen to me. Some of the posts she recieved made me feel as though there should be a huge modification to our home life for the dog. It also scared me and I felt like our daughter maybe should not be around the dog much at all and it should be limited contact. Our girl hugs the dog and pets his head all the time and he is very accepting of her. From reading a couple posts likem Elmos' I got the impression we had her in serious danger just playing with the dog.

I feel I got the best information I could have ever gotten. Many yelled at her for not being there, she was not but I was. people please make sure you get the full story before riddeling a newbie like us, we really needed help and it almost turned us away. My girlfriend was at the point of never coming to this forum again but she got to see there is good information out there especially from the way my post was handled. Thank all of you for your help you don't know how much better we feel as well as better educated.

[Judi W]

I'm going to put in a very important thing here. When I said the respect must be two sided, that means you do need to realize that dogs can and many do enjoy interacting with children (not all dogs are "kid" dogs) but..... (this is a big but) they are not a child's toy. Hugs are out. They are not welcomed by dogs. Although many dogs accept hugs, they still do not like it and anything like an extended hug is truly offensive to them. When you teach your daughter to be kind to the dog, you need to teach her what to do that the dog considers kind. A gentle pat on the head will suffice. One of the reasons for children being bitten is that they too often get in the dog's face and that is exactly where they are when hugging. Hug your momma, hug your poppa, hug your teddy, but do not hug the dog. Signs of affection must be mutually satisfying. For a dog, a simple pat on the head and the words "good dog" can mean the world. A hug is uncomfortable for them and not received as affection but rather insult. There are many things a dog must accept that they certainly would rather not, however if it is supposed to be affectionate, it should be viewed by the dog as such. As I said, children do not have the status to enforce hateful things upon a dog and should not attempt to do so.

You must please teach your child that there are certain times when the dog should not be bothered and also that the dog is not a toy. Her interactions with the dog should be things that the dog enjoys or the dog will hate to see her coming and you will be in the soup as far as a happy family is concerned.

[hmeadq]

You asked about your daughter and training. My trainer wants entire families to come to the classes, except children under 8. She says that the classes are long for them, and she would rather see them only at the last couple classes, when the dog is better behavied and calmer. Even then she wants two adults so one can stay with the kid and one with the dog.

Also, make sure you use lots of "Good boy!"s. We have started really making a big deal when our puppy does somethimg we want. Like if he forgets himself and jumps on the bed (usally if we are sitting there talking) I say "OFF!" He'll hop off and I'll say "Good off, good boy." This type of empasizing the positive has really helped his confindence and his willingness and desire to please us. Because he knows he can.

I do not envy you. a puppy and a young child at the same time is a double training whammy. With my LIMITED expeierence and what I've read, I'ld say just make sure that your puppy gets lots of love and lots of pets (on your timeschedule since you are on NILIF but still LOTS) afterall, even though he did something very bad, he does not know why you are still mad at him.

Good luck!

[SonnyRott]

And it all depends on your lifestyle. Everyone's home life is different. I also raised 2 boys with a Rottweiler.

When our pup came home I think my youngest was 3 at the time. We made allowances for that. I did not allow tug playing, food stealing, pinching, sqeezing, laying on the floor and rolling around with the pup, etc. No running like little banshees in the house. They got along splendidly. They grew up together and had a blast. Most winters the dog would pull the sled up the hill for the boys and gleefully chase them down the hill. The 3 of them had more fun in the snow (and also in the pool). It can, and does work, but not if the children do not know the boundries.

With this dog I am really enjoying the "rough play" and the tugging but I do not have little children underfoot. Like anything, life is a series of changes and adjustments.

So, teach him what it is you want him to do, correct him when he does wrong, don't hold a grudge, don't drill him constantly, enjoy his puppiness, teach the little girl boundaries around the dog, let him enjoy his 2 minute meals, keep him in classes, give him daily exercise, keep his brain working, socialize the heck out of him, and you should have a really well-rounded dog.

P.S. Don't forget those teeth, ear and paw checks!

[Wally31]

I am not mad at him at all, in fact when he did it I could tell he didn't know why I was mad. I was just not sure what to do to prevent this from happening again. We also got some bad info from another forum that told me I should be more forceful and make him obey. I also got the keep you child away from the girl.

I will have a talk with the girl about the hugs. I have to change myself then because I have hugged him myself with one arm as I roughly pat his side... I have not done it by his head though. I will tell her the best way to make him happy.

For the training, the lady we trained with said she should help with training but only when she is with us. The girls love and good nature make it very easy though because it is very very easy for him to please her. She smiles the whole time.

She is good with the dog but when she plays by herself she is like bipolar, very loud and active The dog seems to not mind

[Judi W]

Why aren't you continuing on with his training?