Bored or Full?

[kristins1877]

Trooper is in his "Advanced" training class and since Basic he has been in a treat motivated class. Recently I have noticed that he is unwilling to work for me. The trainer can come over and get him to do what is asked of him but often times he will not for me. He is great the first 15 minutes but peeters off after that. Could he be bored? I am thinking that he works for the trainers because they constantly alternate different types of treats. Could he be getting sick of the same kind of treat? Or maybe full of treats? Sometimes he just lays down in the middle of class and refuses to get up! We are also trying to wean off of treats and he will NOT do anything unless he sees the treat first. Any advice? Also after this class I would like to continue training -- is it ok to retake the same classes for reinforcement or is there something else that I can move to? (he will be getting his CGC and hopefully pass his Therapy Certification)

[hmeadq]

We use a combination of 2 kinds of cheese (in tiny bits) and three diffrent BilJack soft treats (pizza is his favroite, except for the cheese!)

The variety seems to help, but he is still in Basic.

[poohbearsmom]

Is your dog given a treat every time he exhibits a correct behavior... or, as you've moved up to advanced class, does he have to work harder and give you more before the reward is received??

How are you building excitement (drive) in him? Sounds like his drive is diminishing as you work with him... 'been there done that' attitude.

I had to start working very hard to build and maintain my boy's drive - by using a toy, it did the trick... tease tease tease...let him get it, out the object... tease tease tease.... let's work. Now, his focus is much more intense, and as time has passed, he maintains it much better, and for longer periods of time. He's really working for the ball now, and understanding that if I get what I want... he gets what he wants.

In addition, I think if your excitement is waning through the duration of the class, so will your dog's. This is probably why he works better for the instructor than for you - watch your body language, tone of voice, and monitor the tension you're feeling (frustration)....

A little tale: About a week ago, I was working my boy, I wasn't feeling very good, but needed to train.... we have an intermittent barking issue (he yells at me when he thinks he deserves the ball, and I disagree).... so, I was teasing him, and simply telling him 'no' each time he emitted the bark, and teasing some more until we extinguished the bark.... Since I had intended to work on other things during this training session, and I couldn't until the yelling subsided. I apparently had a little anger in my voice (between feeling icky, and not being able to progress as intended)... I wasn't aware of it, but my dog wasn't responding normally, and my buddy said, "Why are you so angry?"... I immediately realized he was correct, so I asked for a simple behavior that my boy could succeed at, rewarded him and put him up.

Moral to the story? Sometimes we are not even aware of our own behavior and how it can affect the dog in his training. Learn to pay attention to these things.

Hope this helps.

[miccmill]

Originally Posted by poohbearsmom

Is your dog given a treat every time he exhibits a correct behavior... or, as you've moved up to advanced class, does he have to work harder and give you more before the reward is received??

How are you building excitement (drive) in him? Sounds like his drive is diminishing as you work with him... 'been there done that' attitude.

I had to start working very hard to build and maintain my boy's drive - by using a toy, it did the trick... tease tease tease...let him get it, out the object... tease tease tease.... let's work. Now, his focus is much more intense, and as time has passed, he maintains it much better, and for longer periods of time. He's really working for the ball now, and understanding that if I get what I want... he gets what he wants.

In addition, I think if your excitement is waning through the duration of the class, so will your dog's. This is probably why he works better for the instructor than for you - watch your body language, tone of voice, and monitor the tension you're feeling (frustration)....

A little tale: About a week ago, I was working my boy, I wasn't feeling very good, but needed to train.... we have an intermittent barking issue (he yells at me when he thinks he deserves the ball, and I disagree).... so, I was teasing him, and simply telling him 'no' each time he emitted the bark, and teasing some more until we extinguished the bark.... Since I had intended to work on other things during this training session, and I couldn't until the yelling subsided. I apparently had a little anger in my voice (between feeling icky, and not being able to progress as intended)... I wasn't aware of it, but my dog wasn't responding normally, and my buddy said, "Why are you so angry?"... I immediately realized he was correct, so I asked for a simple behavior that my boy could succeed at, rewarded him and put him up.

Moral to the story? Sometimes we are not even aware of our own behavior and how it can affect the dog in his training. Learn to pay attention to these things.

Hope this helps.

Wow, thanks for this reply. This is begining to happen with Hannah too and I kind of discovered by accident that using my happy, excited voice and saying "are you ready?" got her up from her slouch and looking at me but I didn't really connect what was going on.

[Judi W]

I think you must also consider not just building the excitement, but from what you describe, the relationship. Motivational training means you are going to make the work as much fun as possible but it does not mean that you relinquish your position of being master. A dog that lies down and refuses to get up is telling you more than that is wants something different as a motivator. It is telling you that it is in charge. Take care that the dog does not view you simply as a food bowl.

The reason difficult dogs usually hop to it when the instructor takes the lead is that the instructor not only has better timing, but usually carries an authority about their movements, voice and body posture and the dog is not quite sure what the results might be if they diss this person. He thinks he knows what you are going to do - nothing - or simply begging him for a response. The idea is that you are going to make the work as fun and satisfying for the dog as possible, but they still have to do it.

[lblax]

Originally Posted by kristins1877

Trooper is in his "Advanced" training class and since Basic he has been in a treat motivated class. Recently I have noticed that he is unwilling to work for me. The trainer can come over and get him to do what is asked of him but often times he will not for me. He is great the first 15 minutes but peeters off after that. Could he be bored? I am thinking that he works for the trainers because they constantly alternate different types of treats. Could he be getting sick of the same kind of treat? Or maybe full of treats? Sometimes he just lays down in the middle of class and refuses to get up! )

it looks to me as if your dog has been advanced to higher levels because he simply knows the tasks treats and toys are useful tools to train(teach) positions of tasks but once they are learned you should have proceeded to the training phase of corrections where the dog simply learns that he must do it regardless... your dog has figured out he doesnt have to work for you without you begging and bribing him all the way....and i would seriously look at your trainers considering they let a dog with this tendancies go beyond basics without overcoming this

[debbiej]

that was the situation I was in till I changed classes. funny, what was different was the take charge attitude taught in the new class. If one of us was having trouble with something, our instructor stopped, came and helped the person with the way they were handling the dog, what to do to get results and almost every single time we all learned a valuable lesson. Now the amazing thing is that no one ever felt embarrassed or silly about their lack of authority or clumsiness.

Then one time one of the assistants said to me, 'will she do that without a treat in your hand?' when I realized the answer was 'probably not', I put the treats bag away, kept a few goodies in my pocket for occasional rewards and we got serious, both started enjoying the class more because of the progress we were making. Hilda started developing a 'work ethic' and pride. I swear she loves showing off and doing things perfectly (in class....)

[Judi W]

Debbie, thanks. That is exactly what I was talking about. It is called obedience, not "if you want to". Dogs who appear to resist almost everything can be seen to show exactly what you found with Hilda. Pride in accomplishment. Dogs are indeed task oriented and that means they have a feeling of accomplishment towards doing a job, and not just filling their stomach.

[kristins1877]

This is definately the issue--he chooses what he does and when he wants. He needs to do what I want. The trainer always uses a cheery and excited voice and he responds but what about those cases where you need him to come or settle or leave it in a situation that is not play--I will probably not have a cheery voice all the time. I think he may need to have a different training environment/technique and I may have to look elsewhere for training. With 9 other dogs in the class it is so chaotic just to get his attention and when I do it is only for a moment.

[Judi W]

Kristin,
I have found a change of attitude on the part of the owner/handler makes more difference than you can imagine. It isn't that you particularly need a different class, but you need to change your hat to that of one who says, "I am in charge of you dog and am not going to take your crap". Once that is decided, believe me, the dog senses how things are and you will find a change. That is why they do so much better with the instructor. It is the authority that an experienced dog person brings to the mix, not the kind of treat or even the excitement they generate. Few dogs diss an experienced handler.

Not sure what your relationship is around home, but you might want to step back and look at that as well. By that I don't mean the phoney little tricks that are supposed to establish rank, but your body language and attitude. You want things to be that the dog is attempting to please you rather than the other way around. It should be that when you are pleased, the dog is happy. If you have a little girly voice learn to change that to one that commands respect rather than a voice that sounds like you are someone who needs help. I had one class where I actually put together a "voice lessons" group and session. It worked a treat. (all women, who reported that they had better respect with husbands and children as an additional plus by-product). Stand tall, walk as if you know where you are going and use eye contact. Eye contact can be hard of soft as called for. In your mind, you must have the thought and emotion that any dog that lies down and refuses to move = "how dare you!!"

Try this. You will find it makes all the difference.

[Luvs]

Originally Posted by kristins1877

This is definately the issue--he chooses what he does and when he wants. He needs to do what I want. The trainer always uses a cheery and excited voice and he responds but what about those cases where you need him to come or settle or leave it in a situation that is not play--I will probably not have a cheery voice all the time.

I still always try to call Akasha to me in a happy voice. She comes when I call her 99% of the time. That 1% she will look at me and stop but waits before coming to me and it takes my firm no nonsense voice to get her to realize "Uh, oh she means business, I better get my happy butt over there" When training I do use my happy voice, because it does get a much more enthusiastic response. I want my dog happy while she is working. That being said, while I do want her happy and try to stay positive, Akasha has learned that ignoring a command is NOT an option, no matter which "voice" I happen to be using

Originally Posted by kristins1877

I think he may need to have a different training environment/technique and I may have to look elsewhere for training. With 9 other dogs in the class it is so chaotic just to get his attention and when I do it is only for a moment.

I agree that 9 dogs can be a large class, depending on the class level and instructor. If the instructor is unable to provide individual attention for each student and you feel that you are not getting what you need, then it may be time to find a new instructor or a smaller class.

[kristins1877]

thank you for all the great responses, especially Judi. You have shed new light on my issue and I will definately look at how I am vocalizing commands on my part. Wish you were here in my living room for lessons! (ha ha!) Thanks so much!